The Furious Angels
FA Discussion => General => Topic started by: Tbone on October 15, 2004, 12:14:48 am
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Eligoh has resigned from the FA. He left me a message as to his reasons, though I have not talked to him personally about it. I figured I would forward the information along to all of you:
"Eligoh: I would like to leave fa
1. I thought of as a nazi for having interest and also respect towards Adolf Hitler for his leadership skills, but not for the fact that he did kill millions of innocent people including children.
Eligoh: 2.I feel ignored on ts, and i'm sure its not because "they didn't hear me"
Eligoh: 3.I'm also thought of and treated differently for certain things.
and 4. There seem to be groups in the faction from my point of view, the important people and the people not cared about.But keep in mind I can be wrong.
Eligoh: Also there is a 5. I am switching to a machinist, in the beginning I never really knew which factions were for what.I'm basing this decision on my personal choice, I would rather have the matrix around then it be destroyed.
Eligoh: Let there be no hard feelings, if you make a post about my leave, please tell the others that I would have stayed for many of them, but when you just don't feel welcome its hard to be motivated to stay.
Eligoh: And to you tbone, It was great being in FA and a time, but maybe its my own fault for not feeling respected, maybe in this world you can't be open to the "bad guys" opinion and voice, otherwise you will be shot down.
Eligoh: I hope to see many of you in game when its actually released, and I hope we participate in well thought out battles together.
Eligoh: Thanks for the good times we did have, I still have all those damn wavs of you and seven singing dracula together....
Eligoh: That drum solo of yours was pretty damn random...
Eligoh: Well I hope you read this sooner or later and haven't closed the box, because I sure as hell ain't repeating it all. I'll see you around."
Feel free to discuss his reasons for leaving. It is unfortunate that he did not voice his concerns to me before deciding to leave. In order to stick with protocol, his account will be deleted and he will not be allowed in our Teamspeak server. I'm sorry that things couldn't work out for him.
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Crap. Eligoh was a good bloke and has been with us since as long as I can remember. I am very sad to see him go.
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Well shoot, theres another one gone. Well... respect to Eligoh
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I would say that the least motivated of us are leaving, but that sucks, because all those who are here are motivated, and even the worst is good.
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well it always sad when somone leaves, but if he feels he isnot respected that is his chioce. but he did somthing last night that was quite interesting. can't say anymore on this post pm me of you want info.
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I can understand where he's coming from. I'm always ignored on TS by those who are 'more important', and he was also right about the nazi thing. I totally thought he was, but I see what he meant now...
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I have no idea what this nazi thing is about, but I'll post my opinion anyway. Adolf Hitler, while a horrific tyrant responsible for oppression, torture and the mass-extermination of an entire race, was nevertheless a genius. I for one, could never be in a position to "admire" Hitler, but I do still hold him in a certain awe for his accomplishments and the way his mind worked, his exploitations of weakness and his plans.
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There's a huge difference between admiration for a person's accomplishments and constantly parading images and ideas associated with that person in front of everyone. I may admire the abilities and drive of a Stalin (I really dislike Stalin, for the record) - but I don't have to have a hammer and sickle in my signature.
Eligoh was really starting to piss me off with the propaganda. I was willing to work within certain limits, but when he asked for a picture of Hitler in his sig, that was way over the line. Anywho. Yeah. Good kid. A bit skewed. I think he'll turn out good. I'm sad to see someone go - even if we mostly argued.
I did ignore him on teamspeak for the same reason that I ignore others on occasion. Sometimes they just piss me off. So... I do what my mother always told me to do. I keep my mouth shut. People annoy people. I'm sure that there are people who I regularly annoy. No biggie.
That being said - I have a feeling that this topic might trend towards a debate that will really piss people off. Just a friendly 'Keep it in line.' :)
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I appreciate that this is a sensitive topic but I'm interested to see what people think about this one- the Hitler thing I mean.
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Sure Hitler was a maniacal genius, but when you've got a country that's in turmoil as Germany was when he took power, it's pretty easy to rally them for your cause through fear and empty promises. His actions should never, in any way, garner him any sort of respect, admiration, or high standing. The 6 million innocent people gased, shot, burned, and tortured deserve at least that.
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I had no idea what he was talking about concerning the Hitler reference.... :-\
However, as for being ignored on TS, well I am sometimes - but not that often.
I think we need to get some rules sorted to help with this, I don't know.
> I'll start another topic regarding that.
As for Eligoh, sorry to see any member leave, especially when they are going to fight the machinist cause.
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I spent a lot of time talking with Eligoh in the past few months. He's a good guy and helped me with a few things.
He often told me how he felt ignored and misjudged because of his admiration of Hitler and WW2 germany. I tried to explain to him that even though he had the right to his opinion, this is a sensitive subject and he should tone it down. Basically because the forums are a public space and that some people might be offended. We don't see any Neo-Nazis adds on TV for the same reason.
He told me he was thinking of leaving FA. I tried my best to convince him to stay but I think that a few of his friends wanted to be machinists so in the end he just followed them I guess.
It's too bad because I liked the guy but I think he'll be happier somewhere else.
That's life.
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Goodbye..
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I just talked to him again. He's planning on joining "The Collective", a machinist faction.
I met two guys from that faction last night. They couldn't wait for PvP to be enabled and kick my ass because I was a FA and therefore a Zionist. I guess we'll start grouping more when PvP is enabled ;)
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I am very, very, sad to see Eligoh go. He was, in my beleif, one of the most loyal memebers of this clan.
It is indeed ashame that he has left. Ironically when i was considering leaving the faction, it was Eligoh who had presuaded me to stay.
He was not a racist. He regarded Hitler as an amazing leader and motivater, which he was. He also happened to be a mass murderer and pychopath. Take into mind that not only Jews were murdered in the Holocaust. Blacks, Gypsies, and Homosexuals were being exterminated also. I can reiterate the fact that he is not a racist because me and Eligoh were very close. I am an African American. He never belittled me, he actually empowered me. I refer to the example I gave before about how he had encouraged me to stay here.
Like I had also said ebfore, he was immensely loyal. He believed in this faction, he truly did. And, I am sure, he still does. He is indeed a Fallen Angel.
However, about this whole TS, and "important people" thing. This drama has been going on for a while. I mean with the whole "The Round Table" idea. That just alienated EVERYBODY that wasn't in that select group. Especially with a name like The Round Table. I know some had questioned why I wasn't in TS more often, that sure as hell is a reason.
Now I am more then sure that the Captains and Tbone and Staff must congregate in the Private Room from time to time, but to constantly go in there every eight minutes is very upsetting. When there is no...communication...it only leads to distrust, confusion, and anger, which leads to this. Resignations.
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Hmm... sad? Sorta... I think hungry is really a better term
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I'm sad and annoyed that Eligoh left, he was funny. Many a time on TS he made me laugh, and as for the Adolf Hitler thing here is a fact. If we had kept the medical information that the Nazis had made during WW2 we would most probably have a cure for cancer, be able to clone people amonst alot of other things, however it was totally opposing to the Hypocratic Oath not to mention the fact that countless numbers were killed and tortured. I don't say that I agree with the way Hitler worked, but he was a genius nevertheless.
Goodbye, Eligoh.
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Sad to see him go. Another long-time member gone.
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Who thought Eligoh was a nazi? He is unique which is what I like about him sad to see you go.
Hitler could have been a genius but the fact that he had a strong hatred of jews for no particular reason stopped him being liked. He did however keep some of his promises, he built some temp housing for the homeless and did strart to get Germany's economy back on track. Then he invaded a lot of countries... and killed a lot of people, not just kews either. Why someone would kill hundreds of his most experienced generals is beyond me but... he was a bit screwed in the head.
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He got jobs for 6 million unemployed, too.
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Even so, he did more bad then good, many died as a result of his actions, not just jews, many European and American people died as a result of the war.
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I'm not denying that Hitler was a bad person, but he did do a lot for Germany.
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See you around Eligoh
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He didn't do shit for Germany. Any jobs or housing he may have created was ultimately destroyed as the country was blown to hell by the allies. Germany was a pile of rubble at the end of the war. Doesn't sound like he helped his people out at all. Oh and all this while over 10 million Soviet soldiers were killed, 300,000 Americans, almost 10 million Chinese, 500,000 French, and many more civillian and military allied deaths. So not only is he responsible for destroying Germany, but most of the Eastern hemisphere as well.
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i'll miss ya dude.. and for the record i never saw you as a nazi :P
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How can you say he didn't do shit? Sure, after the war Germany was fucked over, but general standard of living for Germans during Hitler's rule went up. Like I said before, he ridded the country of unemployment, even set up the "Strength through Joy" organisation for holidays for people. Of course after the Allies had invaded the country is going to be in the shit but any country that is invaded as forcefully is going to be "a pile of rubble", it is hardly Hitler's fault that invasions make things into rubble is it? Don't get me wrong, Hitler was an evil, terrible man, but during his rule German people were generally much better off than they had been during the time of Weimar Germany. Yes, culture was surpressed etc but saying he didn't do shit is just wrong.
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but saying he didn't do shit is just wrong.
what's wrong is trying to talk over a whole continent and create a master race. he didn't do anything for Germany, what good are a few years of happiness at the price it cost in human life? While the white Germans were "happy" the black Germans were killed, the Jewish Germans were killed, the gypsies, the homosexuals, the handicaped, all of them Germans, and killed. So when you say he did a lot of good for Germany, you mean he did a lot of good for white Germany, right?
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I'd like to publicly thank our grandparents for surviving the worlds most darkest years. I'd also like to give out a nice hefty FUCK OFF to anyone who sees any good in Hitlers rule, thought process or fuck'n day to day activities.
*edited for your profuck'n tection*
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Unfortunately this thread has turned from what it was originally meant to be. Another one. Again.
Sevker. I think you're wrong. I understand the sentiment behind your statement. Believe me I can understand. But I do not think that it is right. There is a very fine line between all of this.
What we all have to understand is that we can't look at this emotionally. We have to be objective. Objectively, Hitler brought hope. The people were willing to let other individuals die, to be killed in the most horrible of ways for hope.
I hate to bring up a matrix here, but remember what the Architecht sad. It was such a weakness that people were willing to look the other way, were willing to let it happen. All in the sake of hope. That's all, nothing more, nothing less. They sold out their lives for hope.
EDIT: I meant Medele. I wasn't sure if it was Medel or Medele...either way, I'm sure you know the person I have in mind.
And this is in no way defending the guy. Emotionally I believe he deserves to rot in hell. But not just him. It was not just him. Mendel, Hiemler (I think) they all deserve to be there with him.
I think we all can agree that this is a bad thing. I suggest we stop this and go back to the original thread. Remembering Eligoh, and the reasons why he left.
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Fucking hell. So now because I said that Hitler did some good for Germany, I am called a racist, threatened, and told to fuck off. You people seem to think that because I am looking at the historical facts I love Hitler. Under Hitler, Germany's economy improved, the standards of living for the majority of German people improved, employment rose, industry prospered. I accept this. This does not mean I agree with Hitler's views, or am some sort of neo-nazi as people seem to think. I will have you know that I was moved to tears at the British War Museam exhibition on the Holocaust just recently. Hitler committed enormous, horrific crimes against humanity. But that does not mean I am going to refuse blindly that under Hitler Germany was a better place that it was under the Weimar Republic, for the majority. When I say this, I am not taking into account his Euthanasia program, or the persecution of Jews, gypsies and supposed "asocials" under Hitler's views, but am looking at Germany as a whole. I stand by my original statement that Hitler did in fact do shit for Germany, and his mind is both an intriguing and ingenious thing to try and fathom, and this does not mean that I "see any good" in it.
"edited for your profuck'n tection"
What the hell?
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Mendel? The father of genetics? The monk with peas?
You mean Mengele, I take it. :P And Himmler, Goebbels, Goering, et.al. Yeah. Bad crowd.
If you look simply at things like economics, there were improvements, it's true. But then again to get those improvements, you also get facism, a police force with absolute authority and no checks and balances.
If I have to choose to either a) be poor and suffer or b) live in fear of accidentally saying that the furher licks hairy goat nuts, I'll take poor.
And yeah. That is an oversimplification. But if you think oppressive government that represses the people and cultivates a culture of fear to unify itself is a good thing - regardless of the "benefits" - then there's a place for you. It's called Canada. ( <--- Joke, for those who might think I'm serious) :D
One more thing. Right on the edge at the moment. Locking program loaded and standing by.
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You have to look at it emotionally, we're not robots. Anything good he did is negated by the infinite bad.
Looking back on what he did for Germany you can't say that it was good. How is dictating with fear a respectable practice? People had hope because they didn't want to die. Political opponents were executed as well. The people of Germany had no choice but to follow him, if they didn't, they died. Of course there were people who genuinely supported and loved Hitler, hell there still are today, but those people were and are idiots. The only reason he was a great leader was because he was charismatic. With the country in shambles after World War I, he was a charismatic man that said he could put Germany on top. A charasmatic ape could've done the same thing, the people just needed someone to follow, and they would, blindly, because of what poor shape the country was in. Hitler was nothing special, just a guy who knew how to speak to a crowd.
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I am going to have to repeat myself again here. I am not saying that Nazi Germany was a nice place to be for many, but that Hitler did make some improvements to Germany, and you can't just dismiss this because he was so evil. We musn't ignore what Hitler did for Germany as that would just be hypocritical, he was an evil, fucked up in the head genius, but a genius nevertheless
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But what genius tears down all he's created with a war? He was foolish to think he could take on the world. His plans for Germany are what brought the war and ended the "prosperity"
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"but those people were and are idiots."
Nasty comment. Of course now, we have hindsight, but at the time, it must have been all to easy to jump on the bandwagon. The country was in shambles, I agree, and that is why Hitler flourished. But he knew how to take advantage of this and did so almost perfectly. Germany needed a radical solution and Hitler was the obvious solution.
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Actually Syntax, had Japan not agitated America, Germany probably would have won the war with Britain, and soon after controlled all of Europe.
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Yes. Hitler did get carried away and was power hungry. That was his weakness, his desire to make Germany the strongest nation. The fact is, the post war leaders were so desperate to avoid another war that they made concession after concession (Called the Policy of Appeasement for thsoe who don't know), in the hope that Hitler would be satisfied. He wasn't. He misjudged the appeasement as a sign of weakness, so made dare after dare, from invading the Rhineland, to making the anschluss, to invading Czechoslovakia. It was stupid, especially when Appeasement gave the Allies some time to rearm. I'm quite enjoying this argument, but I gotta do some latin now. Check back with this later.
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"but those people were and are idiots."
Nasty comment.
Nasty comment for nasty people, nazi's don't deserve anything better.
But I digress, I think we've watered this down as far as it will go, I should actually try to do more work...here at work.. :p
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eligoh left...sad to see him go although i get this strange feeling he doesnt like me.
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When you made that comment you weren't referring to the Nazis though, you were referring to those who supported the Nazis out of their own free will. (Screw latin heh)
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"Of course there were people who genuinely supported and loved Hitler, hell there still are today, but those people were and are idiots."
OK I didn't say they were nazi's, but still, someone who still supports, or revere's Hitler, is an idiot. We have hindsight now, we know who he was, and if you still like Hitler...well...you're stupid. I don't want to say it more intelligently, I think stupid, and idiot about cover my sentiments.
EDIT: Oh and supporting nazi's out of your own free will doesn't make you any better, you're supporting nazi's...that's bad.
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How can this subject be looked at objectionably?
How can we approach the motives of the Furher?
How can we say that while he was a bad guy, he had accomplished good things?
Because people still walk the earth that remember the smell of thier dead families beeing wafted into the air through smoke stacks.
You don't want to read the ones I refused to think up to type down. I'm done giving reasons not to defend or seek just in his cause.
Sev out.
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I don't think anybody today "likes" Hitler apart from weird cults. I was just saying that at the time it might not have seemed so stupid to support Hitler as it now does to us today, especially when there was so much unemployment etc. Sevker, history is a big part of my life, and you have to look at this shit objectively. It is an undescribably horrible crime against humanity, and everyone knows that, but Hitler can still be talked about with a degree of emotion taken out. It is hard, we've all seen the footage, the photos,and have all at one stage had a moment where it has troubled our minds deeply to the point of disgust and great, great sadness, ashamedness, anger and pity. But that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to look at his acheivements with a degree of wonder, despite my feelings towards his horrific wrongdoings.
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Personally I don't want to look at it objectively. Hitler doesn't deserve that in my eyes. Emotion should govern any discussion about such a travesty. I'll say it again, just like Sevker, the victims of that era deserve better than that. Hitler should be remembered for his evil, not his supposed good.
I don't want a history book 100 years from now talking about Hitler as a great leader, who made strides in improving quality of life in Germany, and then started a big war and lost. I want him in that text as a maniacal dictator who wanted nothing short of world domination, and killed millions of innocent people to try and get there.
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Firstly, I never said that Hitler should be remembered for his good, and I believe quite the opposite, just as you do. I think that I have already established that I feel the same way as you do towards Hitler emotionally, but trying to be objective here, he did improve Germany in non emotional ways, economic etc as I have already stated, and we must try to understand the German people of the time and why they did all support Hitler, I believe the reason is not that they were idiots but that firstly, they wanted a firm leadership, and any solution to unemployment after the Great Depression, you certainly can't blame them for that. I strongly believe as you do that Hitler was a maniac guilty of horrendous atrocities and deserves to be remembered as just that, but how increidible it is that an Austrian who had been unemployed, turned down from art school, became the ruler of most of Europe.
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And that's why I gave up, we've both got our views, and in the end we're just gonna be repeating ourselves a lot.
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OK man let's call an end to it then.
/me shakes Syntax's hand.
No hard feelings?
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aaaayyy! Never any hard feelings :D
/shake
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Ok cool. :D
Let's get this back on track. Eligoh, you will be missed.
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And perhaps the best observation......
You wouldn't have been allowed to have this discussion in the Reich.
Until you have walked the grounds haunted by those dead, had a woman come up to you crying and show you her tattoo'ed number...and refuse to let you go because you wear the uniform of the Army that saved her....until half your family left their home, came here, and went back to fight and die in the towns near where they grew up on because they recognized that evil and KNEW it had to be fought......I just don't even really give two shakes what you think. It might be "nasty" but, any assertation using GOOD and HITLER in the same sentence is just plain stupidity. Unless it is about him offing himself and the Reich being wiped away.
If I piss on your leg, it WILL get wet. Fact of life you cant dispute. Same with this putzwad evil summnabich.
I've never met a skinhead or other POS who they haven't had to pull me off of yet. Grow up with kids asking you if YOU are a facist , or evil, because your family emigrated from Germany. Yea, I really take issue with any defense of Hitler.
The issue is ABSOLUTELY NOT about some supposed good he did....no....he did no good. The way to hell may sometimes be paved with good intentions, but a black hole express lane to Lucifers confrence room is opened by machinations such as his.
The issue is.......WITH all that potential.....how tragic is it that it was all used for pure unmitigated evil?? The issue is, how sad is it that he managed to accomplish what he did. The issue is.....is it possible to find a way so that it never happens again.
I never heard Eligoh go off on the topic, and I hope the kid looses that fascination. The purest evil sometimes wears the sweetest smile, Death often deals the softest kiss. Nothing but black down that road. The first hit is always free....
I would have had something to say, yea.
But.....that never came up. Wishing for understanding on that topic won't go over with me, either.
Feh on the "Im ignored on Teamspeak". When I have a question, I ask. I banter, sometimes people say something....sometimes they don't. Ok. Nobody has been rude yet. Other than that....its there. I hang out. I wasnt aware it was a popularity contest, but, until you log umpteen hours and bust your butt for FA or the game.....shadddap.
Sooooo..........hadda rant, sorry. Seen toooooo much of it in my life not to.
Hope the kid has fun on MXO, hope he looses whatever fascination/admiration he has for that evil POS. Best wishes, c-ya.
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Thus is the product of ignorance ^
But I can say the same about Eligoh.
Columbus was alot worse, and you dont see people walking about bashing him :P
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Christopher Columbus was worse than Hitler?
Uhm, I dont think Im buying that one.
He didn't "discover" America, but that "spin" in the books , colonialism, imperialism, manifest destiny, etc that lingered well after him was not the legacy or result of a single man. Nazism (more or less) was.
The common thread between Central and Northern Americas (in that regard) are that European empires colonized them. That evil spread slowly, and lingered longer. Hitler and 20th century facism was a much more aggresive cancer, and was cut out.
Span did their own thing down in Central America. I'd have to read up on ole' Chris, but....I don't think he was the Fuhrer of Spanish Colonialism. I think they had a king, oh, and that cooky Catholic Church. Somehow I'd be willing to bet that 'Boys-R-Us' had more to do with it than Christopher Columbus. "Gots ta get dem savages sum reeeeeligin! Oh, and if they have any gold....lets be sure to take that too. "
Uhm, but........if you are going to even BEGIN to tout the virtures of Hitler.....well, while nowhere near innocent....Id again cast my lot with the rest of western civilization.
Not like ANY civilization can claim Utopian innocence. The Greeks, the Native American Tribes, hell, the US of A.....all had Civil Wars, all societies have stains on their history. They are, after all, human. People make choices. Some choices, some people, some lives...are just really bad karma.
Hitler was just a wholly evil human. Nope, you wont convince me of any good that man did. You just wont. No, I cant divorce some very strong emotions on the topic. I admit it. If Im 'ignorant' because of that fact....t.hen....well.......ok. I'll gladly take the hit on this one.
Eh. Anywho. If you want to start a discussion about CC....ok...sure...Im open. I might have my whole head around this wrong.
Not Hitler, though. Not able to. I admit it. If nothing else we will have to agree not to...and...as long as I don't see a swastika, or Hitler in a sig.....I guess I can just walk away from the topic.
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I'd like to publicly thank our grandparents for surviving the worlds most darkest years. I'd also like to give out a nice hefty FUCK OFF to anyone who sees any good in Hitlers rule, thought process or fuck'n day to day activities.
*edited for your profuck'n tection*
/totallyfuckingagree
What we all have to understand is that we can't look at this emotionally. We have to be objective. Objectively, Hitler brought hope. The people were willing to let other individuals die, to be killed in the most horrible of ways for hope.
That is just about the most fucked up statement I have ever heard. In my universe, hope does not find sustenance in the death of the innocent and the annihilation of an entire people.
Why the shit are we talking and arguing about this? In my opinion, if someone wants to be a Hitler admirer, that's fine. But it better never intrude into my life because it's a repulsive and sick world view. There are just some things that you don't share with your faction members. This is one of those lines, imo, and he crossed it, even though I never really confronted him on it. In the Germany that Hitler apparently blessed with his brilliance, btw, it would be fucking illegal right now to speak in support of Nazi-ism - that's how much Germany thanks what Hitler did to them as a people. We still live in regret and embarassment that we ever let something so evil happen to our people.
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Sorry. I'm making a judgement call here, and it's over. Eligoh is gone - take your closeminded arguments elsewhere please. We all have different point of views, and that is to be respected.
Simply take it to PMs or IMs.
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