Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever

[Anonymous]

Hey, has someone here read the chronicles of thomas covenant the unbeliever? Its really an amazing set of books .. Fantasy.


After reading it i was like why do people enjoy lotr so much? The writing is horrible compared to this book..

Really gets you involved, and the lore and history is amazing..


Go read them all!


Any other cool fantasy books you have read?

[Anonymous]

Actually, the style used by Tolkein is considered horrible by lots of fantasy writers.  Denis L. McKiernan specifically set out to write Tolkein-esque books but without the monotonous tone.  The Iron Tower trilogy (actually, I think there are four but I've totally forgotten what such a series is called) was his first try and I think his best ... although I still get most everything he writes especially since his current obsession is with writing MMORPG virtual reality books.  

I love Covenant.  Some people dislike the anti-hero nature of Stephen R. Donaldson's books.  Covenant isn't particularly likable, although he's better than the anti-heros in Donaldson's Gap into Space series (which I also like - I'm an anti-hero kinda gal).  I think his best series was The Mirror of Her Dreams.  CS Friedman does a similar thing in some of his novels, but his anti-hero usually becomes a little too likeable to actually be an anti-hero.

Hm.  If you like novels that don't follow the typical stream of the hero, try George RR Martin.  He's my favorite author at the moment and the twists in his books can ... surprise you.  Anyway, the bastage needs to release the latest book in his Ice and something-or-other set!

Gimme new author selections!

[Anonymous]

Covenant's great!  I liked the first trilogy better than the second, however.  The One Tree never really grabbed me.  White Gold Weilder was great, though.


I got two authors for you to look into.

The first is Robin Hobb.  She is the author of three linked trilogies:  


The Farseer Trilogy:  Assassin's Apprentice, Royal Assassin, Assassin's Quest.

Don't get the wrong idea from the titles, this isn't about uber stealth assassins.  This is a much deeper series than most out there, and has some of the most detailed and complete characters I've ever encountered.  Plus, you'll get to discover the origin of my callsign!


The Liveship Traders Trilogy:  Ship of Magic, Mad Ship, Ship of Destiny

These three books take place to the south of the Six Duchies, the location of the first trilogy.  The characters are different (though there is one returning character from the first trilogy, if you look hard enough), and focus on the relationship between liveships, sea serpents, and dragons.  Lots of pirate action as well, yar.


The Tawny Man Trilogy:  Fool's Errand, Golden Fool, Fool's Fate

This trilogy returns to FitzChivalry Farseer and his companion Nighteyes (main characters from the first trilogy) about 15 years after Assassin's Quest.  This is a magnificent end to Robin Hobb's trilogies, tying together all threads and answering all unanswered questions.  I literally could not put each book down once I started.  


I consider Robin Hobb's books to be the best I have read.  Highly recommended.

[Anonymous]

The author is Simon R. Green, author of the Nightside series and the Deathstalker series.  A wonderful British author with a wonderful sense of humor, I consider Simon R. Green's Deathstalker series to be the most fun books I've ever read.


The Deathstalker Series:  Deathstalker, Deathstalker Rebellion, Deathstalker War, Deathstalker Honor, Deathstalker Destiny, Deathstalker Legacy, Deathstalker Return

This is a science fiction series, with more than a few twists.  Simon R. Green mixes elements of horror, dark comedy, and fantasy into his writings, creating awesome characters and wonderful images and ideas.

A few examples of cool sounding names of people and places:  The Shatter Freak, The Spider Harps, The Mater Mundi (Our Mother of All Souls), The Oversoul.  The neat names are just the beginning...

Deathstalker Legacy and Deathstalker Return deal with humanity 200 years after the defeat of the Recreated.  Humanity is in a golden age, and stays vigilant to the examples of Owen Deathstalker and the rest of the superhuman survivors of the Madness Maze.  But such things cannot last.  The once mighty empire begins to tear itself apart, the Terror Owen warned about has finally come, and the only chance for survival is for Lewis Deathstalker, Owen's descendent by name if not by blood, to dare the Madness Maze, and discover the fate of his long lost ancestor.



The Nightside Series, on the other hand, is a darkly humorous and cynical urban fantasy in the style of a 20's detective story.  It takes place in the Nightside, the dark hidden heart of London, where all dark alleyways connect and where it's always 3:00 in the morning.  All vices and pleasures can be found in Nightside, and anything can be bought and sold for a price...  Outside the Nightside, John Taylor is a little-known detective with little money, but a talent for finding things.  Inside the Nightside, John Taylor is a name to summon by.  He has been hunted since birth for unknown reasons.  He knows all the secrets can be revealed if he can only find out the true identity of his mother, but nobody who knows the secret is talking, and if he were to find out, it may mean the end of all existence itself...

There are three books out in this series now.  Dark imagery, wonderful humor, and cool ideas.

Here's a sample of people with cool names you'll encounter in the book:  Jessica Sorrow the Unbeliever (no relation to Thomas); Razor Eddie, the Punk God of the Straight Razor; the Brittle Sisters of the Hive; Shotgun Suzie (AKA Oh shit!  It's her!  Run!!).

If you enjoy the Nightside books, pick up Drinking Midnight Wine, which occurs in the same setting, but in Bradford-on-Avon (sp?), and includes its own host of wonderful characters.


Whew...out of breath...anyway, [subliminal]GET THESE BOOKS NOW!![/subliminal]

[Anonymous]

That's just weird.  In case anyone's wondering, those last two posts are mine.  

-Catalyst

[Anonymous]

I actually have one of the Deathstalker books.  I rather messed up....I was in need a book pronto for a trip and picked one up in the middle of the series.  Accordingly, I've never been able to get into it....

Other than CJ Cherry, Niven, and Orsen Scott Card I've had difficulty finding good sci-fi books...Maybe I'm guilty of judging a book by its cover    and just don't like the trend in sci-fi cover art.

[Anonymous]

Even though just about anyone whos anyone who reads fantasy has heard of it, the Dragonlance Chronicles are amazing books. First fantasy books I ever read.

[Anonymous]

hey maybe 4 books in a row are called a quadrilogy!
i wonder hmmm..................

[Anonymous]

I've read all six Dune books, and still believe Frank Herbert was way ahead of his time.

[Anonymous]

Tolkien is a great writer. Mostly all people who think so say that because they go, "O my, its so boring, how can it be so long and be good?" or they say "Newer writers are more creative and their ideas are so much better."

They are long, because they are true books, not cheap sci-fi books within a universe where nothing is explained and anything can just happen. What? the bad guy can't be beat? Well ill just make up some F'ed up machine that can destroy him, it can be anything i want and no one will argue"

When Tolkien wrote his stuff, he stuck to somewhat more basic and creative facts. It was long, because he explained an entire world and everything in it and told a monstrous tale based in a world that did have bounds. Yes, there was magic and strange creatures involved, but they cudnt just make an odd weapon out of nowhere or use their magic to an insane extent. They were just creatures that were different. Their weapons extended to rocks, bows and arrows, and swords. The hero was not some man with insanely pointless stuff added on that made him strong and he defeated his foes, though it was sometimes hard. Tolkien's hero was a hobbit. A weak little creature, who despite having all odds against him and nearly losing his life and his mind still gave it all he got. Even then he wasn't able to save the world, he wanted to keep the ring. Tolkien is a far better writer than many people realize because they fail to look at what he did. He made a world with bounds, where what was happening was at least reasonable despite the fantastic elements. He even wrote a language for the elves in it to speak. A WHOLE LANGUAGE. Never in history had one soul person written his own language. Anyone who says his writing was horrible, does not deserve the gift of knowing how to read. Give it up so that someone else who can't will be able to experience Tolkien's genius.

Good day to you, sir.

[Anonymous]

I declare Soma a junior P.I.M.P.

I agree wholehartidly. LotR is the greatest fantasy ever. Plain and simple.

[Anonymous]

YEAH! I'm a junior P.I.M.P!

[Anonymous]

I love Covenant. Some people dislike the anti-hero nature of Stephen R. Donaldson's books. Covenant isn't particularly likable, although he's better than the anti-heros in Donaldson's Gap into Space series (which I also like - I'm an anti-hero kinda gal). I think his best series was The Mirror of Her Dreams. CS Friedman does a similar thing in some of his novels, but his anti-hero usually becomes a little too likeable to actually be an anti-hero.

I love Covenant too, and he is really cool in the second chronicles, tho i prefer the first ones..

Linden on the other hand...i hate here...selfpitying little...

But Covenant is the best ..

[Anonymous]

Tolkien is a great writer. Mostly all people who think so say that because they go, "O my, its so boring, how can it be so long and be good?" or they say "Newer writers are more creative and their ideas are so much better."

They are long, because they are true books, not cheap sci-fi books within a universe where nothing is explained and anything can just happen. What? the bad guy can't be beat? Well ill just make up some F'ed up machine that can destroy him, it can be anything i want and no one will argue"

Heh, I'm wordy gal, so words don't scare me =) In fact, I'd say that Martin, Rawn, and a few others actually have far "larger" books.  That is not where the disagreement lies.

I agre with you on many things about Tolkein.  I believe very strongly that Tolkein defined and redefined the idea of a vast fantasy saga.  And, sadly, I DON'T believe that most newer writers are more creative.  In fact, the shadow of Tolkien can be seen when looking at almost any fantasy book today.  Every serious fantasy book must be three novels long, and it must feature a protagonist who needs to get (or understand) the puzzle while he slowly goes mad trying to get it to where it needs to be, and a Big Dark Protagonist who's mean and controls armies. Every fantasy series has a long-buried ancient civilization and a funny language to speak.  Flip through the series: Terry Brooks, Stephen R. Donaldson, Dennis L. McKiernan, David Eddings,  Fritz Leiber, Terry Goodkind, Melanie Rawn, Anne Mccaffrey, Michael Moorcock...Even Dune, Asha, is, in many ways, a large and elaborate Tolkien riff.

Almost every single fantasy novel ever created is a shadow of Tolkien (Well, not completely.  Amber is definitely unique, but Zelazny was never very popular and I'd consider his books to border on Sci-Fi.)  

BUT let me be very clear about my disagreement.  I think Tolkein created a beautiful vibrant world; I just think he was, relatively speaking, a poor writer, with meandering plots, overblown descriptions, and cold dialogues. I understand why Tolkien did this; he was a professor of Middle English in England and created the world of Middle Earth to stand as an Olde English land heavy in myth and legend.  And some people prefer a book rich in history.  
 
I'll use as the opposing view, my favorite author at this time, Martin, who devoted his efforts to creating vivid human characters and machivelian style plots instead of some vast elaborate backdrop for his series.  Having read almost every fantasy novel I could get my hands on, I'd say his is the first fantasy novel that really told Tolkien to go to hell and blazed its own path.  It features no elf, no dwarf, no Sauron clone... Just a bunch of really interesting humans duking it out in bloody battles.

See, I prefer a book rich in character development and plot.  I skimmed my way past certain segments of the Tolkien book, and I expect many hard core Tolkien fans do as well.  Details of that nature aren't crushingly important to me.  And I don't feel that writers who spend their words on the details of personalities, and characters, and interaction and plot cheapen the experience.  Nay, they make it more interesting ... for me.  

Don't get me wrong, Tolkien did sometimes get the characters right.  As you noted, he had a knack for finding parallels to modern living that struck right through the heart of everyone and placing the charcters into meaningful situations.  That is what gives his novels such majesty.  But the characters in Tolkien's books are gloriously - almost aggressively - one-dimensional.

So we disagree on what we prefer in a good novel.

[Anonymous]

I've heard a lot about Covenant, and was considering picking it up. I'm glad to see so many people approve of the series.

As far as other sci-fi series go, I must admit I rarely find them interesting. I, like Muse, seem to have a subconscious revulsion to the often metallic-embossed covers of sci-fi novels.

Frank Herbert's Dune series is by far the best sci-fi series of all time. I've read them all several times and really find the introspective and philosophical qualities of the stories to be extremely interesting. But it really was all in the way Frank Herbert wrote it, because I've read House Atreides and House Harkonnen (both by Brian Herbert) and they're just not the same.

As for Tolkien, I have to respect his work. Anyone who creates over 40 different languages and dialects whilst creating a story that eventually will become the basis for the vast majority of future fantasy works is worth recognizing.

One series I've always loved since I was sixth grade has been Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials series (the Golden Compass, the Subtle Knife, the Amber Spyglass). Everything about those books - the descriptive style, the religious/mythological symbolism and the uniquely complex character development - is completely enthralling. It was one of the few series that actually stuck with me since I first became interested in the genre.