The Furious Angels
FA Discussion => General => Topic started by: Tbone on March 12, 2014, 01:03:50 am
-
Well, I take no pleasure in having to make this announcement, but it's a necessary step in moving forward. FA will no longer be supporting EVE Online. The CEO of our corp in EVE, Manicvelocity, disbanded the corp without our knowledge, joined a different corp, and hijacked our news feed to say that FA had been disbanded and that all members should join his new guild (with the headline "Furious Angels Go Brave").
As a result, Manic has been removed from leadership and from the guild. This was a last resort and something we've been trying to avoid since Manic voiced his unhappiness months ago. As to why Manic decided to go out the way he did, I don't know. We haven't banned him from the website/TS yet as I know he has a lot of friends here, so perhaps he will clarify.
I do know that he was thinking of leaving the guild a few months ago, but we did everything we could to support EVE to get him to stay. A week or so ago he raided our base on Rust, taking what he could and leaving all the doors open. When asked if he was involved, he lied about it, only later confessing. We tried to talk to him privately about it, but unfortunately that conversation didn't lead anywhere. Then he made the news announcement tonight and I had to take drastic measures to minimize any future damage. I sent him a PM wishing him luck, and I hope he finds happiness somewhere.
As a result, however, I've removed the EVE groups and forums and we're losing support for that game. I know that leaves a few of you homeless in that game, so I understand if you end up joining with Manic's group in EVE. Just make sure you stick around for all the exciting things that are coming down the pipes!
Manic was with us for a long time, and this leaves a big hole in the community. We're looking for leaders to step up, and I have many projects that I'm currently running solo for the Oculus Rift and would love some help! We've also been actively playing Rust and my brother and I just got Titanfall as well. As always, we shall continue to press forward! Onward and upward!
-
A truly unfortunate turn of events.
-
Wow, I certainly never saw this coming. What a bummer...
-
Uh... The Furious Angels Corporation was not disbanded... I'm still in it, and will gladly provide screenshots showing I'm in it and that it still exists.
I believe it was an overstatement on his part to say the Corp was disbanded because he is moving to Brave Newbies.
I also believe it is an overreaction on your part to remove all ties to EVE because of his actions.
But whatever.
-
Well that was unexpected. But ok, so... a few things I'd like to say:
- First and foremost, I'm rather surprised that anything regarding FA's involvement in EVE even raises an eyebrow among the general membership. I figured if anyone honestly cared about the goings-on within the corporation, I assume they'd be, well, in the game and getting involved.
- The corp is not actually disbanded (http://evemaps.dotlan.net/corp/Furious_Angels). That was just part of the script of a phony news broadcast (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP_CCdimCDQ#ws) which was intended to be fun, and was well-received by active corp members. The corp is safely in the hands of my alt, and anyone who wishes to remain in the corp knows they are free to do so. Far be it from me to dictate how anyone should play the game.
- The corp members and I had discussed joining an alliance a few times in the past as a means of keeping activity up. This is not a new development. At any rate, I didn’t think it was something I had to discuss it with Tbone or any other non-EVE players. Again, I didn’t think anyone would care. Apparently I was wrong. But it turns out the more active and respectable alliances won’t allow a corporation to join them with less than 50 members. Over the last few months we’ve had, at most, three FA corp members online at any given time. This made joining an alliance difficult. Our other option was to place the FA corp on hold for the time being, an option that I openly expressed to the membership. Nobody was forced out of the FA corp, and those who were looking for more activity and more fun were given the option to go elsewhere.
- Commensurate with that, I felt that joining Brave Newbies (or some other highly active corp) was absolutely the wisest move in order to encourage more activity. It’s difficult to maintain activity for a corp as small as FA, and EVE is a game that is best played with other people. More than anything I want us to have fun, and as CEO I was failing to provide that. The Brave Newbies corp and the Hero Coalition are composed of some of the most respected groups in the game, and they have proven that they can provide the fun. The future of EVE (http://www.eveonline.com/rubicon/vision/) is looking bright, with many high-end gameplay features on the horizon, and this happens to be where the fun is.
- In regards to the Rust incident: I explained myself in the staff forum. I believe the discussion didn’t lead anywhere because there was nowhere else for it to go. I did what I did, I owned up to it, and I made a point to stay off of the server from that point on. And it turns out the server was wiped shortly thereafter anyway. The only people who seemed to take issue with the incident were Tbone and Broin. I didn’t hear anything from any other Rust players. So what more was there to discuss?
- As for “hijacking” the news feed… I used my access to the news feed to post FA-related news. I assumed that would be ok, seeing that non-FA-related news has been posted there before. I didn’t think it would ruffle the feathers of anyone who didn’t play EVE. I had specifically asked to be removed from the staff group a few weeks ago because I no longer wanted to be privy to the under-handed back-talk that was taking place among the staff regarding former members. That kind of clique-ish mentality is not something I want to be associated with, and I suspect it is going on right now as it pertains to this situation. But my staff access was not revoked, and I used that access to, again, post FA-related news in the FA news feed. I feel “hijacking” is giving it more weight than it deserves, but if that’s how it’s going to be viewed, so be it.
So there’s my side of the story. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify. I really appreciate it. If anyone has anything they’d like to ask me, I’ll be keeping an eye on this thread. Or feel free to PM me if you’d prefer to keep it private. Either way, I’m more than happy to offer full disclosure.
Peace out, I guess. Be excellent to each other.
-
I would like to thank Manic for all his contributions to FA over the years. Especially, the time and dedication he put into helping us develop the new site. These are things that will have a lasting impact on the current and future members of the community. Manic was a good friend, an ally, or even a foe at times but there was always respect. And in the times when I hit bottom he was always one of the supporters for me to get back on my feet.
However, I am disappointed in recent actions. I never thought in a million years that our site headline would contain the words, "Furious Angels Disbanded" or have a cruel in-game 'joke' played out on us. Regardless of the motivations, there has been a lot of talk about what it means to have a 'loss of trust' and it pains me to see this happen.
I really do hope you can figure out your path. Take it easy.
-
Regardless of whether the post was a lie or not, we cannot tolerate the trolling of our own guild, especially from leadership. We can't have a person like that running a chapter of FA either, so the FA in EVE is no longer an official chapter, even if it has been left around in name for kicks.
If someone else in EVE would like to take over that chapter, please contact me. Unfortunately Manic had permissions to a lot of things, and the quickest solution at 2 a.m. was to gut the EVE API hooks and forums from the site.
This website isn't just for EVE, and anyone visiting our site could see the image of "Furious Angels Disbanded". I'm not buying the "harmless prank" act for a second this time, and any "overreaction" perceived was necessary to avoid further damage. Even if it was clear that it was just in EVE, just because members and leadership do not enjoy a game does not mean we don't take pride in how the guild is presented within the game, and I feel like the way the guild has been presented lately is a huge stain on our name in general.
As for "under handed back talk about former members" in the Staff forum, in the spirit of full discloser (and none of this is new information), Fuse PMed me asking to regain permissions to Teamspeak in order to join us for Rust. I took the PM to the Staff forums to get feedback and got two replies. One person commented about how it's still weird to have public forums. Another person commented that Fuse could basically fuck off (and no, that was not from Broin or Lithium). Nothing else was said. He was discussed very briefly in another Staff thread that I created to try and talk to Manic about why he raided us on Rust, but it was nothing sinister.
Fuse unexpectedly dropped tag in the middle of a meeting we were having with new members in SWTOR after years of being a part of the guild. He near-immediately joined another guild. It left a lot of us rather shocked and disheartened, and a lot of the older members feel burned and cannot go back down that road with Fuse. This is not unlike Manic's sudden tag drop of FA and PSA about it, followed by a recruitment video for another guild he's already joined. I'm trying my best to keep things friendly, as I don't want more people as far on the outs as Fuse has become. I hope that the antagonizing can stop soon and that Manic is able to move on.
If there are any questions, feel free to contact me.
-
In my experience, a body in motion tends to stay in motion unless acted upon by an external force.
In my experience, a body at rest tends to stay at rest unless acted upon by an external force.
This is called an equilibrium or static state. It is the desired lowest energy state of a system.
In my experience, only stupid actions disrupt equilibrium.
Interpret that however you wish.
-
It saddens me to see another old-timer depart.
Take care, Manic. I wish you the best, and enjoyed gaming with you.
-
Manic, dude we love you. You've been such an awesome person to hang out with and game with since MxO. Honestly though, you're kidding yourself if you can't admit that you've been attempting to prank and troll FA. It's not only just that but your tone in TS has been super resentful and rebellious for some time now. I feel like you were either being immature and passive aggressive, or you voiced all of your concerns to staff, didn't get your way, so you decided to get some payback.
Dude, you lied about raiding our base in rust. You were obviously up to no good. And why wouldn't you have spoken with staff about the huge EVE change? This is common sense no brainer stuff, and I feel like you're attempting to hide behind twisted or rationalized reasoning.
It's messed up and you know it. If you could just man up and admit your true intentions, whatever they were, I don't think this would be as big of a deal.
It sucks dude, because I really liked gaming with you. You know what you did was messed up and you attempting to justify or downplay what you did is honestly insulting.
I'm not writing you off man, but I at least need you to know how I feel about it.
tl;dr: You've obviously had beef with FA for some time now, instead of communicating like a mature adult you did this passive aggressive "trolling" or "joking" crap. Not cool man. :(
-
Oh nevermind...
Stop bringing me into this.
-
I know my opinion may not matter to you as much as that of the real long-time vets around here, but I've also played with you for quite some time and enjoyed your virtual company immensely.
I honestly though the base theft in Rust was simply a good-natured prank, what with the relatively low value of gear in that game and the frequent wipes, one of which occurred very shortly afterwards. I still wish you had recorded and edited it, much like your other humorous Rust videos, so we could have watched and laughed along with you. But now it seems like it wasn't such a harmless prank after all.
As for the EVE corp joining Brave Newbies, I think it's simply a great idea and one we should've done a long while ago. It's perfect for a small corp such as ours, and will surely result in much more fun for everyone involved. What most people don't quite understand is that EVE corporations are different than guilds, and joining a large group such as Brave Newbies does nothing to weaken our cohesion as a group and loyalty to FA. If I still had the time to be playing EVE, I'd be right there with you!
But as for how you handled both of these matters, I really can't get behind you. You really did lie to us about the Rust burglary initially, and you KNOW how FA takes lying. It's probably the worst thing you could do, and coming from you definitely made it hurt so much more.
I didn't actually see the News post before it was taken down, and only saw the video through your link here, so I only have what was said to go by. From that, it seems it was one hell of a post to get such a response. Whether you saw it as such or not, Tbone (and apparently others) saw it as grossly insulting and wildly unprofessional and inappropriate. You've been around long enough to know how much of us think and how we would react to something like that, so it's only logical to assume you did so knowing it would downright piss them off. We all expect better from a leader and a veteran who has been here from the beginning.
I'm not a staff member so I am not privy to the staff forums, and so I have no knowledge of nor right to speak on anything that goes on there. But I assume that, unless there is gross misrepresentation or outright slander regarding others, I an the other non-staff simply don't need to know about it. The staff forums are private for a reason, and unless something horrible is going on behind closed doors, please keep in between you and the other leaders.
From my perspective and with what limited information I have, it doesn't seem to me that you should be completely kicked out of FA, but I can trust that the decision was made via staff consensus and with more information than I am personally privy to. Perhaps it's just my selfish desire to keep playing games with a fun guy like you, and perhaps I'll receive some flak about it, but I really don't want to see you go. Definitely not like this...
-
All I could hear at the end of Erathaol's post. :P
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avr7enrZuJQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avr7enrZuJQ)
-
^ This
-
*sighs* and i was just looking into EVE. =.=
-
Sorry buddy. You should check out Rust with us!
-
It's ok Yuri, EVE is better as a mistress mmo. That said, 5 more days to large blaster specialization complete :-)
-
WTF
http://youtu.be/dP_CCdimCDQ
-
Welcome to three days ago, Likwid...lol. That was one of the videos posted on our front page, along with a recruitment video for the Brave people.
-
Likwid is my favourite;)
-
I blame the flu. But honestly I must have not seen that when it was posted previously.
*cough* *weeeze* *snot*
I'll go back to bed now. :D
-
Ok..so how do I check out rust? where's the site?
Sorry buddy. You should check out Rust with us!
-
That video really pisses me off.
I understand it was intended as a joke, but god dammit why the fuck was this ever made.
It boils my blood to see FA regarded in such a disrespectful, meh kind of way.
God dammit that video fucking pisses me off.
/endrant
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go commit atrocities in Titanfall to many enemy faces in order to calm myself.
-
That video really pisses me off.
I understand it was intended as a joke, but god dammit why the fuck was this ever made.
It boils my blood to see FA regarded in such a disrespectful, meh kind of way.
God dammit that video fucking pisses me off.
/endrant
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go commit atrocities in Titanfall to many enemy faces in order to calm myself.
(http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120823185214/antfarm/images/7/7e/Sftyjgb.gif)
-
After having a few days to really think all this through, I’d like to say a few more things and hopefully explain myself a bit better. Some of this feels redundant, but I need to get it out there for my own peace of mind. Then I’ll be on my way.
I am sorry that I made some of you angry, or worse, disappointed. Likwidtek especially. Likwid, I have to disagree with some of your comments, but I have the utmost respect for you and I hope you know that.
I like you guys. Some of you have been known to drive me up the wall a bit, but you’re all genuinely good people. While it’s no secret that I have been unhappy with the state of FA for a long time now, some part of me would always hold out hope that things would get better. Unfortunately that part of me has gotten smaller and smaller as the years went on.
I thought things would get better with Darkfall, but they didn’t.
I thought things would get better with The Agency, but they didn’t. (Or didn’t have the chance to.)
I thought things would get better with APB, but they didn’t.
I thought things would get better with The Old Republic, but they didn’t.
I thought things would get better with The Secret World, but they didn’t.
I thought I could make things better with EVE, but I couldn't.
It was year after year after year of seeing hope and anticipation crushed by disappointment. It was exhausting. Clearly many of you are better equipped at dealing with that than I am. Now there is a lot of hope and anticipation surrounding the Oculus Rift. But if history is any indication, I have little reason to believe that the Rift will truly re-ignite this community into something that I could have had real pride in being part of.
And that’s really all I’ve ever wanted. Pride in whatever community I was part of. I was proud to call myself a Furious Angel back when we were rocking the face of The Matrix Online, but I simply have not felt the same way since. And I know that I am not alone in this.
I know from many private conversations over the last few years that there are a number of people here, veterans and non-veterans alike, who feel similar to how I’ve felt. That the “Furious Angels” name carries little weight anymore outside of an historical context, and the social structure of this community is built in such a way that makes it very difficult to enact any needed change. There are multiple reasons for this, and no one person in particular is to blame. But there are FA members here right now who are absolutely not happy with the way things are. And they are hesitant to openly voice their concerns or their ideas for change because they know from history that, though leadership may listen to those concerns and ideas, leadership will not adequately act on those concerns and ideas.
To those of you who are happy, or are at least content with the way things have been and the way they are going, by all means, stay the course. I don’t think FA will see the surge of new recruitment and activity on the level that Tbone is expecting upon the launch of the Rift. But if that is to happen it will require the overwhelming support and enthusiasm of everyone here, and it needs to start sooner rather than later.
To any new members who might be reading this weeks, months, or even years down the line, don’t let these words deter you from being here. It’s entirely possible that The Furious Angels has since become a major pillar of the VR community, in which case you are in good hands.
And to those of you who I’ve spoken with who are not happy with the state of FA, make the simple decision to either stay or leave. Leaving doesn’t have to mean severing the friendships you’ve made here, because we live in a world where the internet exists. There is absolutely nothing keeping Angels and former-Angels from gaming together, except for maybe ego. At any rate, don’t wait for the situation to improve. Take whatever steps you feel are necessary to improve it.
I’m happier now than I’ve been in a long time. Even my wife has said she’s noticed a distinct improvement in my attitude since I was removed from FA, and we’re having better sex than we’ve had in weeks. Seriously, this has been good for me. And I think it will prove to be good for this community as well. So thank you.
Maybe look me up in EVE: Valkyrie when it launches. I’d be honored to be on the receiving end of the FA Pain Train for once. :)
If anyone would like to keep in touch: manicv@gmail.com
Take care.
-
To those of you who are happy, or are at least content with the way things have been and the way they are going, by all means, stay the course. I don’t think FA will see the surge of new recruitment and activity on the level that Tbone is expecting upon the launch of the Rift. But if that is to happen it will require the overwhelming support and enthusiasm of everyone here, and it needs to start sooner rather than later.
I agree with this. It can be frustrating to be working hard to create/develop/foster something new and potentially great while everyone else checks out and says "let me know when it's awesome." That's my frustration, but it's also my cross to bear.
The greater issue is basically two types of people joined FA back in the day (and I'm sure a combination of both). One group saw FA and said "Wow, these guys are awesome - I want to be a part of that!". Another group saw FA and said "Wow, if I'm a part of FA, people will see me as awesome!". There's a difference.
One of the problems is that 9 years ago, we were IT. I've never seen a guild be more influential in any game I've run across since FA in MxO. So many people played that game simply because they saw our videos, read articles about us, and wanted to capture that same lighting in a bottle. I was young and in college and had plenty of time to devote to it, and most of our members were young adults as well. As life marches forward and things change, people change, games change - we have to adjust. The chances of us catching that lightning in a bottle again are slim to none - it was a once in a lifetime thing, really - we just hit right on the consciousness of those wanting to play MxO. Every other game we've played has been us trying to fit our style into a different kind of game, and that's not easy.
Regardless, most of the people who have stuck around have stuck around because they developed friendships. They found a tight-knit group of players who they game well with and don't care what we do as long as we do it together. They'll never leave, even when things aren't as active. They've found their home.
But there are people who just want that feeling of being awesome. They want to be the best, and if they don't think FA is the best anymore, they want to find whatever group will make them feel good about themselves again. It's not a matter of community and friendship. It's a matter of pwnatude and how they can use the group to achieve their personal goals.
Like I said, I'm sure many of us have a combination of both - a desire to be the best while also having a strict devotion to our friends and the community at large. Some people can't balance the two and don't know who to blame. "FA should be this. FA should be that." - If we don't fit into an individual's idea of who they think we should be, they get pissy and eventually leave. It's like a bad relationship where you're constantly trying to make the other person change instead of accepting them for who they are, warts and all.
What has kept FA going for 10 years is our ability to change with the times as well as the devotion of our core member base. Virtual reality with the Oculus Rift is the future of gaming, and I think it brings us right back to our Matrix roots. It's something we all get and love. It's where we shine. I've generated a decent buzz about us in the VR community and left a lot of good impressions with my beta testing.
If there's anything I want people to get from this, it's that you get what you put in. Don't wait for something to change. Don't wait for something to become awesome. You're all awesome because you're here, and you all have something to give - to contribute. Those who remember my ORIGINAL website challenge will know how crude a project is when I'm working on it by myself! FA was able to achieve the success it had because everyone contributed - everyone was excited about the possibilities. There is this feeling of "meh, wake me up when the Rift is here". When we were waiting for MxO, we were on the edge of our seats. Half of the fun was the WAITING - the convos in TS, the beta rumors, the development.
That's the stage we are at with the Oculus Rift. I'm just as excited about it as I was MxO back in the day. I'd love for more people to get involved and help take us to new heights. How?
We can use Firebox as recruitment. Please download it (http://www.dgp.toronto.edu/~mccrae/projects/firebox/) and take a look at the site I've been creating. Even if you don't have a Rift, you can walk around in the virtual world. Our site is one of the default bookmarks because we're awesome, so it's easy to find. I'd eventually like to make a cool recruitment tool out of it.
We can use VRChat for meetings and interviews. Again, download it (http://www.vrchat.net/) and take a look. Just yesterday Revalis, Zero, and I managed to import a custom FA avatar into the program to use!
A few of us are on TS all the time. Just come say hi! I really think we should start thinking about recruitment soon, even though there isn't a specific game we are calling home yet. Most VR enthusiasts want to get their hands on ANY compatible game, and the killer social online experience will become apparent sooner rather than later I'm sure.
As far as I know, we're the ONLY guild currently designing ourselves for VR gaming. That's HUGE! I'm meeting and talking with people that I'm fairly certain will go down in history as the pioneers in virtual reality, and we can be a part of that history! If that doesn't get you excited for what's around the corner for FA, I don't know what will!
-
Thank you Manic for expressing some of my own thoughts on the matter.
Thank you Tbone for being able to keep all these plates spinning for the last decade.
I think part of the problem that has bugged Manic (and myself) for sometime is the pervasive elitism still lingering from the MxO days, something that I think T addressed well in the post above.
This community became very tight-knit under the conditions of MxO if only because we were dealing with a hostile player base. This was before 'doxxing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxxing)' became a term, and trust was more valuable than $info. This caused many people to play their cards much closer to their chest, and in my opinion only added to the levels of mistrust and paranoia of outsiders. This all comes together to reinforce a groupthink mentality that cannot positively serve a healthy and growing community in the long run.
I am a member of the Furious Angels.
I play Eve Online.
I consider myself a friend to both Manic Velocity and Fuse, and still try to keep in contact with both of them.
I do not consider any of these mutually exclusive, and I hope that others can manage to do the same.
Again, keep at it T. You've been doing this for the majority of your adult life and that takes some serious fucking dedication. We're all still trying to figure out what the future holds and as long as we can healthily discuss our different opinions in an respectful, adult manner, then we're already a step ahead of the curve.
-
Regardless, most of the people who have stuck around have stuck around because they developed friendships. They found a tight-knit group of players who they game well with and don't care what we do as long as we do it together. They'll never leave, even when things aren't as active. They've found their home.
+1
-
/thread.
Awesome job guys.
Manic, we love you man. Tbone, seriously you built something awesome. Warts and all. I have full intentions of talking to you guys via my wetware teamspeak implant 40 years from now in my rocking chair, drinking my ensure.
-
I know I'm am a pretty non-vocal member most of the time. I tend to observe quietly from the shadows, if you will and speak up only occasionally.
I came on-board during recruitment for MxO and I can tell you what convinced me that this was the group I wanted to participate with, was the dedication, enthusiasm and commitment to the RP worlds within which FA participated. I genuinely enjoy(ed) interacting both in-game and out of game on these forums with such a diverse group of gamers. With so many different personalities there are bound to be a few bumps and a bit of turbulence, but the ability of the group to weather these times as a whole speaks volumes. Many of the members I became most familiar with during MxO and DarkFall have parted ways with FA over the years, but I honestly don't think any of them will experience the same camaraderie with another group as they have with FA......I may be wrong, but I doubt it.
Although I don't have the time to game like I used to (though circumstances have allowed me to play more now than I have in the previous couple years) and though I haven't always been thrilled with the choice of games out there for us to play, I know that there is a great group of fellow gamers out there with whom I share a gaming history and to which I can relate. If they happen to be playing a game that interests me, I know I am welcome to join and be a part of the effort. I appreciate and value that.
In short, regardless of all the drama that surfaces sometimes, I hold no hard feeling toward anyone on a personal level. I only hope that regardless of what happens that there can still be a mutual respect for each other and for what FA represents. I have and will continue to miss the participation of those who's names I have come to think of as synonymous with FA, but will also respect that things and people change over time. Regardless of where our virtual paths take us, I think in the end, we all want the same thing: which is to enjoy a quality gaming experience with people we know and respect while working toward a common goal. I will not presume to tell anyone what decisions they should make for themselves, but don't let opportunity control your loyalty. Contrary to popular belief, lightening has been known to strike the same place twice. ;)
That is my lengthy two cents.
P.S. : I still think we could kick ass in APB. Hehe...
-
Thank you Manic for expressing some of my own thoughts on the matter.
Thank you Tbone for being able to keep all these plates spinning for the last decade.
I think part of the problem that has bugged Manic (and myself) for sometime is the pervasive elitism still lingering from the MxO days, something that I think T addressed well in the post above.
This community became very tight-knit under the conditions of MxO if only because we were dealing with a hostile player base. This was before 'doxxing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxxing)' became a term, and trust was more valuable than $info. This caused many people to play their cards much closer to their chest, and in my opinion only added to the levels of mistrust and paranoia of outsiders. This all comes together to reinforce a groupthink mentality that cannot positively serve a healthy and growing community in the long run.
I am a member of the Furious Angels.
I play Eve Online.
I consider myself a friend to both Manic Velocity and Fuse, and still try to keep in contact with both of them.
I do not consider any of these mutually exclusive, and I hope that others can manage to do the same.
Again, keep at it T. You've been doing this for the majority of your adult life and that takes some serious fucking dedication. We're all still trying to figure out what the future holds and as long as we can healthily discuss our different opinions in an respectful, adult manner, then we're already a step ahead of the curve.
That sums it up for me!