The Furious Angels
FA Discussion => Off Topic => Topic started by: Anonymous on October 28, 2004, 05:18:39 pm
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(I figured the politics topic is too old to revive, and I think it got too muddled anyway)
Crossfire is a place where you can post your views on topics. However, I have decided to implement a few rules to make it a little fairer-
*There will be no direct flaming against a single person. Although I cant do anything against you if you were, it just makes for less lock-worthy content.
*You must wait either: Three posts or three days till you can post again. The other political topic turned into three debates between two people. It would be nice to see this not happen with this one.
*Keep on topic. Every once in a while, I'll make a switch of the subject if no ones posted in a while or the arguments or starting to become redundant.
The First Post you make should be expressing your view on the subject, not just attacking anothers view. Remember to back up your attacks with facts or intelligent observations.
Other than that, have fun and keep cool my babies!
Issue No. 1: Based solely on there campaigns for the war on terror, who would you vote between the presidential candidates?
MAJOR EDIT: ALSO KEEP YOUR ARGUMENTS INTELLIGENT AND PLEASE SPELL CHECK!!!!!
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Kelly (Kerry??), i might not be american but i would vote for this guy with out a doubt, we went to war for the wrong reasons and kelly knows that.
EDIT: SORRY I JUST HATE BUSH AND I HAVE DYSLEXIA SO I CAN'T HELP MY SPELLING AND GRAMMER ERRORS.
Edit by Eroz: Kerry not Kelly????
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Personaly it shouldn't matter, the president only has the true power to send the troops to war, he doesn't control any part of it, his generals do that. Minus that fact, Kerry because he has at least seen combat, ever if he dissed it after.
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Bush, even if they found no WMD, Saddam had used them before on his citizens. I have spoken with several soldiers and engineers working over there that have talked to the civilians that said they've lost family members due to WMD testing.
He also recieved intelligence from 6 other countries that told him they were there, we wouldn't want another north korea, would we?
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I so enjoy how people outside the US define themselves through our actions.... Goes to show you who sets the standards in the world. T-minus 4 days until Bush is relected. Please don't cry when it happens :2'(
I know how emotional socialist can be :D
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;)
This is what I can say Iluvatar. We have seen what Bush has done on his war on weapons of mass destruction. He attacked a country that he admitted did not have them, that his own appointed advisor over there admitted did not have them, when the UN inspectors were not able to finish their work....and the list goes on. We have seen what he does. Attacks without forethought, without a possible back-out plan. How can we say look to the UN for help, or for regulation when we do not even abide by the rules that we have morally imposed upon ourselves. And it was not as if it was so unbearable. He could have waited, but he is not a man of patience. Who wishes to have a leader that forsakes the wisdom of others and brashly makes a decision? Do you? Unfortunately, some seem to.
Even more importantly, why would you, on the basis of abusing the UN's Oil For Food program attack a country, when YOU YOURSELF refused to abide by "moral obligations" and just ignore the UN inspectors and invade another country. Hypocrisy at its best, no?
It doubly astounds, and scares me how people in this country can look at Bush, and see a leader. I mean just consider the facts. Where's America's allies? They're being "co-erced" or you can rather say they're being "peer-pressured" into helping us. Peer-pressured into sending their troops ove into a foreign land into a war that has not *one* *thing* to do with them. Hell, it doesn't even have anything to do with us. And Why? Because if you do not send troops over to die *with us* then you are *against us*. Look at our national debt. Took it from the largest surplus in history, to the largest deficit in history. Not to attack our older members, but I am only 16, and I do not fancy in the least paying all of that off, which unforunately I'm going to have to. Look at how other countries view Americans now. They all think we're gun-tooting, horse-riding, Yeeeeeee-Hah cowboys like Bush. And that's what it basically comes down to.
Now, What is popular is not always right, and what is right is not always popular so I can unserstand those who would say that judging a president's ability by how well the world views him is wrong but then you yourself is wrong. What is a president but a countries' representative? He is nothing more then America's minister, which means servant. That is the attitude a president must have. The spirit of serving.
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This will be long so if you don't like it, don't read it.
I mean no offense here but I've never been impressed by the american voter. I remember the campaign in 2000. Gore had a slight advantage over Bush in the polls. They both go on Oprah Winfrey's show about a week apart. Gore goes there, he's polite, nice and funny. No change in the polls. Then Bush goes and kisses Oprah on the cheek, which Gore didn't do. He jumps 10 points in the poll. What ? How does that make him a better candidate for the presidency ? How about his position on issues ?
Americans seem to vote for the nicest guy. Very bad idea. Would you hire an airline pilot because he's a nice guy or because he's can fly a damn plane ? In 2000, americans chose the nice guy.
I'm a canadian so I won't vote on Tuesday but since we're a neighboring country, we're interested in any american election.
I saw a poll that was done about two weeks ago. That poll said that over 90% of major countries on this earth don't want Bush to be elected. Kerry is by far their preferred candidate. They clearly don't want Bush around. The only exception is Russia. If my memory's good, the countries polled were Canada, UK, Spain, France, China, Germany, Russia, Japan and others I can't remember. Of course, only americans should decide who their president will be but that gives a clear indication of the state of foreign policy under the Bush administration and what's to come if he is elected again.
Even though the United States are the only remaining super-power and that they intend to police the world, pissing every other country off is dangerous. Remember, David won against Goliath. In the "war against terrorism", you want as many countries on your side as you can. Bush failed miserably at that.
As for Iraq, I think Bush had an obligation of results, not an obligation of intentions. The fact that he went to war and that the intelligence was bad, doesn't change anything. The fact is that he sent the army to invade a country for no good reason. Even though he might have had the best of intentions (we'll never know the true reason) the result was a fiasco. He is accountable for that. It was a major blunder, maybe an honest blunder but a blunder nevertheless. If I wreck my car, even if I didn't mean to, the car is still wrecked and I'm penalized because I have to pay to repair it and my insurance premiums go up. The car doesn't magically repair itself because I didn't mean to wreck it. I don't think telling the insurance company that my premiums shouldn't go up because I made an honest mistake would work. Before going to war you have to have rock solid reasons and no other options. Bush's reasons to go to war were shaky at best and he had many other options.
Sure everybody agrees that the world is better without Saddam Hussein. The flaw in that argument is that there is about 50 other dictators in the world that are no less evil and dangerous than Saddam Hussein was and strangely enough, the Bush administration doesn't invade their countries. Think Kim Jong Il of North Korea.
If Bush gets elected, he'll probably go to congress and ask for another 70 billions for the war. I hope americans love Iraqis because they're costing them an arm and a leg.
The Bush administration (Donald Rumsfeld) did a great job of alienating the USA from the world community. The countries involved in the coalition, mostly countries that got their arm twisted, got "bought" or that try to suck up to the states, are mostly small, insignificant countries. The only exception: the UK, Japan and Australia. For Japan and Australia, it's a very moderate involvment.
So to answer your question Iluvatar, I would vote for Kerry without the shred of a doubt. Not because I think he's such an incredible candidate but because I'm sure he would make fewer and smaller mistakes than the Bush administration did and very probably will do again.
I can think of at least ten things that the Bush administration did that, alone, would be enough reason for me to not vote for them.
Tax cut for the rich (I still can't see why some voters are not bothered by that since the wealthiest 1% of the taxpayers gets a tax break as big as the combined tax break for the other 99%. How much does Bill Gates really need a tax break ?)
- Invasion of Iraq (huge costs, casualties, no exit strategy)
- Half-assed search of Ossama Bin Laden
- Went from a record budget surplus to a record budget deficit
- Destructive foreign policy
- Dick Cheney/Haliburton and sides with lobbyists
- Health care costs going through the roof
- "Stole" the election in 2000.
- Doesn't seem to understand or agree with the separation of church and state (when he says that God speaks to him and helps him take decisions, it reminds me of Ossama Bin Laden. Different God, same idea.)
- Major embarassment for americans (He can't say "nuclear" and chokes on pretzels. He makes Dan Quayle look like a genius. He's done more to tarnish the image of americans in the world than any other president I can think of, even Nixon.).[/list]
Sure I'd like to take a beer with Bush. I think he's probably a nice guy. So is my butcher. That doesn't make him a good president.
Even though the polls give Bush a very slim advantage, I really hope, for the sake of the world, that americans will come to their senses, use their heads and make the right decision. I can't imagine taking four more years of Bush. The thought that such a moron has his finger on the red button scares the living crap out of me.
Just my two cents.
Feel free to reject my arguments, call me a socialist, bend over and reelect Bush. :)
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I think the most important thing I have noticed about Bush (being a foreigner) is that he seemed to lie.
He seemed to lie about WMD. About alliances and links between Saddam and Al Queda. He is very discriminative some times (for example the US is not all Christian these days).
To me, his lack of honesty, and his view on morals (from a Christian perspective) has let him down, and that to me means he should leave - regardless of how good his tax cuts or new policies would be should he get a second term...
I can say the same about Blair, but with a bit more conviction since I'm British.
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Terrorism. The attack on 9/11 had been coming a long time. Bush wasn't the cause of it. He was the man to do something about it. And, yes, we all prayed and cheered and cried and were glad there was a commander in the White House. Just check the photos from around the world if you've forgotten about it. But when we were attacked by terrorists during Clintons’ presidency, he only made a half-hearted retaliation on a random country, after much pressure to stand up for America in the world. Check the records; it bears up what I'm saying. That kind of lack-luster, half-hearted response is what encouraged the attack on 9/11. Kerry would do the same thing. He'd try to talk to the bad guys--or even apologize for offending these killers (flame me). He so wants to be "liked" by the world and bends over to do that. Especially from the countries who hate us (eg, France).
The latest farce over 380 tons of explosives missing--give me a break! Satellite photos showing Russian troops at the site in a long convoy before Baghdad falls? French warplanes used to attack our troops? Of course these guys didn't want us to attack--we were stealing their bread-n-butter arms deals! We would have seriously regretted Gore in the White house in 2001. And we'd have seriously regretted Kerry in the White House in 2004! Neither man has the gumption to stand for decency and right--our right to exist. Our right is to exist without our "oversight" coming from the nations of the world.
On a touchy subject, there are more dead babies each year in America than ever will be in Iraq. But some think that's a choice, not a life. But If a premature baby 6 - 7 moths out of the womb lives, then who can say when during pregnancy it's NOT a person? Aborting him/her (killing him/her) is murder. Bush stands against that.
Tax refund for the rich? EVERYONE working in America got money back from the government.
Just my point, and my vote: I'd rather have someone who talked to God for guidance than our enemies or popular opinion for guidance. What's that tell us, our children? "Do whatever the popular choice is? We'd all pay a steep price for that.
Thank you for listening (or reading) and sorry about the lack of paragraphs. Don't always believe what the media, shown to be liberally biased, says. For a change, read the conservative side with an open mind.
But hateful people and mob mentality and rage seldom listens.
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Firstly, it's 3 posts, so don't flame. Secondly, Luv gotta thank you for making this topic, great way to get all the frustration out, of course in a positive way, and hey if we can somehow sway some voters, it's all good ;) Thirdly, Very goot posts to all three that followed me, Corefump especially. Great post.
Firstborn, while I did congrautlate your post, it's crooked. I mean come on bro....look at what's happened in America. I'll use 9/11 because that's the example you brought up first. What happened after that? Think back. EVERYBODY was I <3 America!! I <3 NY!!! GOD BLESS AMERICA!!! God dude, every freakin country in the *world* loved, America. Everyone citizen, well except Afganistan and Iraq, was pouring out their hearts to us, some who previously despised us. They were changing their minds. What happened to that? Where did it go? There was this....powerful upsurge of patriotism in America, and it was unpresidented. And in 4, count em 4, years time it has all but vanished. It is gone, if you fell into a comma when that had happened and woke up you'd swear you were in a different country. The country's patriotism has diwndled dramatically. Why? Well the crippled economy, which yes, has come because of 9/11. BUT that isn't the only reason. The war with Iraq has been a major reason. Along with many other things. This attack on its own people, because of so-called Chrisitanity has weakened us. It's divided us.
Let me ask you another question Firstborn. Do you, can you even begin to imagine the political power we would have, and we did have after 9/11? I mean if we had trully cultivated it correctly, instead of throwing it into a pit....we would ahve been *the* superpower, and we would have been loved for it. no one would be angry. Not one, not problems, no qualms, no distractions. Dude, if Bush had handled this country correctly for the minimal time he had control, Kerry would not have had a prayer on running. Not one. He would have came into this thing already a loser. But no, Bush has made a mistake. After a mistake, after a mistake. He's already lost this election, the real question is can Kerry win it.....
Firstborn, please, the God issue is not for Bush to decide. Remember on what this country was founded? Freedom from political oppression concerning religious views? He would be breaking the law and if he gets re-elected he will be if he makes any law abriging the church. Along with this....conservation of marriage. Oh God the man disgusts me. I mean seriously, when the divorce rates go up, you can *honestly* say you want to "preserve" the sanctity of marriage? How about you start by stopping those guys from cheating on their wives, and sleepng with their own little daughters pal...
I'm not getting heated guys, I'm just telling the truth, and, not to get to vulgar so *please, please* don't take this the wrong way, but when guys spend the night with Rosy,as many guys do, and want to wake up and tell a woman what to do with her body is just out and out hypocrisy.
"But hateful people and mob mentality and rage seldom listens."
Firstborn, you're describing your current president do you know that? He's very hateful, and rarely listens to anyone but himself. As along with thos tax breaks, there was one major tax refund that went out when he came into presidency, and then tax breaks that were awarded to the rich. I do listen to the conservative side, and somehow, no disprect to you bro, but I can't help but become apalled at how you some conservatives choose to acknowledge one point, but completely ignore others. And Firstborn you have *NOT* done that at all, I'm just saying some of the conservatives that I've come in contact with.
I look forward to your guys replies...nothing like a good political forum to get the fingers working ;)
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9/11 is something that should not be forgotten.
However, the conspiracy theories behind it and the protests these days, mean that Bush's action on the event are now marred.
I don't really want to get into the conspiracy theories - you've all seen them. "Patriots" will not believe it where "exteremists" probably will. Is it just because Bush runs the USA the reason why "Patriots" believe he could not act against his own people?
Surely others around the world have thought this. Heck, there are those that believe Saddam should still be in power, even though we "know" he shouldn't be.
Anyway, each to their own. I'm a Kerry man... but it doesn't count since I'm in the UK does it? Hmmn... if everyone hates Bush as such, maybe he isn't the best for the WH. Well, he's had a shot - we can't say Kerry will be worse until he's had his show.
It doesn't matter how good you do in the world, most will remember the bad.
EDIT: Apologies for posting after 2 posts and not following the rules. My gaff there, I forgot!
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I am not going to go into this much, because I am a believer in religion and politics are something you just don't discuss.
The first point I want to make is: Would it really have matter who was president at the time of 9/11? Would they have done the same thing Bush did in the aftermath? Yes they would have. They would try to find who was reasonable, find that person, and make them pay. ( Pearl Harbor, OKC Bombing, etc, etc.) We make the people PAY. Bush started it by searching for bin Laden, but for some reason we have not yet been able to find him. (Is it Bush’s fault? Who knows, the world is pretty big last time I checked. Did he not put enough man-power into looking for him? I don’t know either; I don’t get daily military operation reports.) If Gore, Bill, Bush Sr., Nixon, Washington, or any of the Presidents were in office they would have started to look for bin Laden as well. The only thing Bush did wrong was use war as a first option rather then a last resort. (Which is one reason why I will not be voting for him.)[And the whole going after Iraq, that’s political economy for you, the dollar is the true mastermind here.]
The thing that scares me the most about Bush getting re-elected is that he will become a lame-duck president. He can do anything in the 4 year and have no regrets, HE CANT BE ELECTED AGAIN. He can say “No Draft” after the election is over, draft time comes around and all we can do is cry about it. Congress can’t impeach a President over lying (Bill committed perjury and other crimes, look it up if you don’t know the difference.)
IMO, we need to get rid of political parties and start voting on the best man for the job. (Just look at what political parties have done to us.) We need to stop the world for revolving around the dollar. We need to change the system before anything can get better. Can Bush or Kerry, do it? No, only the nation as a whole can.
IMO: Neither party, nor person is good, but the Democrats are the lesser of the two evils, for now. (Yes I am a fence riding; I use the information at my disposal, to make the best choice at that time, if the information changes my position can change. “You’re in charge, Rico, until you die or I find somebody better.” [Random useless fact about me: I think we should have the government of the BOOK Starship Troopers.]
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Kerry, definately, just look at CoreDump and Eclipse's posts.
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if bush is relaeted,and it is the biggest if in the world of ifs, then it will prove, americans cannot vote correctly or bush cheated like last time.
there were no weppons and no need for war. why would you vote for somone who has the same brain cell count as a earthworm amebia.
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Major Edit: Instead of going on about this, I feel we are going off topic.
New Topic: Canadas Health Care Plan has been widely praised by criticsand citizens here. Yet there are huge flaws about it. What is your stance on Candas Free Health Care and enourmous taxes?