The Furious Angels
FA Discussion => Off Topic => Topic started by: Ketamininja on November 02, 2004, 01:51:26 pm
-
Yep, you got it. The official "who voted for who, and where, and who really doesn't give a damn" thread.
Its pretty close.
Last time Florida was the problem state. 500 votes Bush won by? Hmmmn, yeah but how many "convicted felons" were scrubbed off that list? Quite a few.
Hopefully you will all be accounted for when you hand in your ballot paper.
http://www.bsdunix.ch/public/Voting_Machine.wmv
Please no flaming, we all have different opinions, and there are various facts around. Lets have a good debate.
-
I was wondering when this thread would pop up.
Since it's on topic i'd just like to state that the electoral college is retarded.
-
I would tend to agree with that statement, Syntax
-
It is definitely antiquated. It's a pretty good way of twisting the people's will. The popular vote is all that should matter.
Funny link by the way ket.
-
What a bunch of yutzes.... :D
The electoral college is not retarded. It is designed to protect states rights so that one state does not have a main or major influence over the outcome of the election. It also is the best way to keep special interest groups from going out and cornering the market in a very few states and insuring victory for the person they approve of. For those who don't know (but should) our process is not one of the majority of the people's will (or mob rule in simple terms) we do not have a democracy in this country... It is a representative republic. Nothing personal guys but if your not an American then stop complaining about how our system works... I'm sure there are numerous flaws I can point out in your individual countries political system.
-
in a total non homosexual way, i love you broin :). onto other news, who the crap voted for bush....? i'd just like to know...i mean your not out the clan for voting for him...yet.. j.k :)
-
Well with all due respect Broin, the USA is the only remaining super-power. So every person on this planet has stakes on the outcome of the american election, even if they're not american. We're all concerned with the actions of the 500 pounds gorilla.
We all saw the electoral college crown the wrong guy in 2000 and what that wrong guy did. The rest of the world is just worried about having to deal with another american president that preemptively strikes other countries full of imaginary WMDs, all that in the name of God (and Halliburton).
Just my two cents.
:)
I still like to play with you Broin, even though you sound like a Bush supporter. Anyway, there will be no more Bush supporters soon (crosses fingers), all that will be left is MxO good times. ;)
-
I finally made my descision on who I would support. I'm supporting Bush.
Also, notice how liberals are much more prone to say your wrong (or make the comment "there will be no more bush supporters) than a conservative. Although democrata are more outspoken, the way in which they do it doesnt show well in my book.
Er, uh, Coredump is not insane. I edited my post, I ment my previous statement of almost flaming to Broin.
-
No it's not flaming, it's just tough love :)
You know the Bush administration is currently twisting Canada's arm to have us participate in the "Star Wars" project. You know the long discussed missile-defense system ?
Over 90% of canadians are against participating in this nightware, which most scientist say is not even technically feasible i.e. it will never work.
Our prime minister, even though he will never admit it publicly, really wishes Kerry gets elected. It will take some of the pressure off and help heal the relationship between our two countries. They were badly damaged by the Iraq war.
Again, canadians don't vote but we're still really care about the kind of neighbour we'll have.
-
Nothing personal guys but if your not an American then stop complaining about how our system works... I'm sure there are numerous flaws I can point out in your individual countries political system.
Well, this is why I created the thread - I'm not an American, but I'm curious of the outcome. We have our opinions, but only YOU get to put your opinions to practice with this election.
Please do point out the flaws in our UK system (for example). I know there are many, and I'm more than willing to debate about what can be done with that.
Just a little snippet of our politics:
I believe you guys think we have more than two parties over here? Well, we do have many parties you can vote for, but the top three always stand out. Why 3? Well, the top two are ALWAYS the same, the third is a battle between the other "lower" parties. Everyone over here has never seen the 3rd party in power. They have only ever seen changing back and forth of the top two. They are scared to vote for the 3rd because they think it will waste their vote!
Broin, just rmember although we are not part of the US, and regardless of whether this superpower affected our Countries, we still like talking about it and putting our opinion forward... I'm sure some of us are better educated about the US political state of affairs than some of your countrymen! (I could mos def say the same in reverse)
edit:
heh I read this today, forgot to mention it:
The Washington Redskins have proved to be a time-tested US election predictor, according to readaBet.com. In every Presidential election since 1936, the incumbent has been re-elected if the Redskins won their last home game before the election.
I believe they lost :D We shall see what happens!
-
I'm sure you guys know where to look online, but the BBC always does top notch reporting. This is quite nifty - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/americas/04/vote_usa/map/html/default.stm
The 1972 Nixon map is interesting, considering the outcome of his term.
-
You evil double-poster Ket :D
-
Heh. I had already edited the other one, I figured that was a nifty link anyway :P
-
Why can't we do like they do in Florida and vote on the survey multiple times ?
-
The reason I don't like the electoral college is I just don't get it. I'm confused on why we call ourselves a democracy when we really arent. If we were a true democracy, which we aren't, the popular vote would win. Why the hell wouldn't the "popular" person win the actual thing? It just seems so freaking logical that the person that the people want as president, the "popular" one would get it.
/rant
-
States' rights. That's the long and the short of it.
By way of analogy:
If the UN elected presidents based on popular vote, then small countries with low populations would have no say because they would be overwhelmed.
That's why the electoral college exists. To ensure that low population states still have a say in who becomes president. States' Rights happen to be incredibly important to a large number of Americans whether you happen to agree with it or not. If you don't think that states have the right to be treated like independent countries - consider that California has the world's fifth largest economy. All by itself. California could legitemately attend a G-5 summit. Deal with it. Most State Military units could overrun 90% of the countries in the world. (National Guard units are State controlled and account for a significant portion of US forces currently in Iraq.)
I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying that's the way it is and why.
For the record, we are not a democracy. We are a republic. We know that. The pledge of alligience even says it: "And to the republic for which it stands..."
True democracy means that there are no elections at all. There are no representatives. Every issue that gets voted on gets voted on by everyone who wishes to participate. There are no democracies anywhere in the world. It's just a word we like to bandy about.
Also for the record: I am wearing my Electoral College T-Shirt today. The one that says:
Electoral College Athletic Department - We count... So You Don't.
:P
-
1. American
2. Bush Supporter
3. Electoral College Sucks :)
Back to watching the polls...
-
The definition of the EC does not make it suddenly a good thing. If the majority votes Bush in my state, then all 20 electoral votes go to Bush. Essentially eliminating my vote. Whereas a popular vote would ensure that every single vote is important, and that each and every persons opinion counts toward their candidate/issue. The popular vote represents what the people want. The EC represents some crack-pot ancient idea to get the president people don't like into office, as long as he plays a smart campaign and focuses on the swing states.
The EC doesn't protect states rights, it creates prizes out of the states. Florida and Ohio have the most major influence over the election, they are what the EC supposedly tries to eliminate (by your definition). Special Interest groups are everywhere, swarming my state. I can't watch TV for an hour without seeing at least 10 political ads, simply because I live in a state that could go dem or rep. And when the time comes, and it's 49% Bush and 48% Kerry, then Bush -wins- 20 electoral votes, and my vote, because I live around republicans, goes to George, whether I like it or not. Now tell me how that's fair?
-
I get the feeling that Bush will win tonight.
I can't imagine having to deal with this administration for four more years. Even though I really wished Kerry would win, I was sure that the "deep america" i.e. guns and bible lovers, would reelect Bush.
Whatever. I guess a majority of americans like the mess they're in. Good luck with that.
-
I guess I get the whole "States' Rights" thing... I would just like to see more of peoples rights... They're out there saying "Go vote! You make a difference!" But it seems as though with this electoral college thing, "your" individual vote doesn't really count. Grouped with others it does, but alone it doesn't. BUT then again, if you go and say "oh its alright if i don't vote" your probably not the only one thinking that then a lot of people won't vote... Ah don't mind me, i'm just ranting. I can't even vote, so I don't see why I'm ranting so much...
P.S. Syntax hit EXACTLY what I was tryin to say. Though I live in Cali, which is a democrat state, I (would be) democrat so it's not like my vote doesn't count. But what about the people like Syntax who's vote doesn't count? Boy, we're active right now...
-
Well you know states right are kind of an illusion since more populous states get more electoral college votes.
-
The right place to bitch about a system you don't like is to your elected representative. If enough people want change, change happens. That's the genius of the founding fathers. They were smart enough to realize that they didn't know everything (unlike most people) and that things might need to change over time.
Whining here about how it's unfair to you that your state's vote is more important than your individual vote accomplishes exactly donkey. Want change? Go out and vote. Petition your reps. Get involved. Typing words here is not getting involved.
Bet you dollars to doughnuts that I've signed more petitions to change and or eradicate the electoral college than all of you put together.
-
You think we're complaining/whining here? It seems to me like just a discussion. Granted a bit off topic, but not "complaining" or "whining".
-
Well Gillette you did a good thing. I wish more americans would do it.
So does anybody know how it went in Colorado ? Weren't they trying to change the "winner takes all" deal ?
-
Eh. When I say whining and bitching and complaining, it's a blanket. It refers to anyone who says: No Fair! when they have, in the past, done exactly nothing to change what they deem is not fair. If the shoe fits, wear it. If it doesn't, then ignore it.
Call you congressperson. Call your governor.
And umm... Get involved. If you don't want to get involved, and you want to complain, try Canada.
Love it, Change it or Leave it.
:D
ps. The dems need a new mascot. Having an ass as a mascot is well... Yeah.
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/
-
Actually, there was nothing to discuss. You guys are bitching about the EC and how "Oh, well my vote wont count." Your vote DOES count. It's going toward who your representatives vote for.
If you want to complain, vote for Nader. If your gonna complain about voting. Dont go out and vote. Simple as that.
-
Nader didn't make it on to every state's ballot. :P
-
Well that's the thing... I can't. Not 18. I wan't to though.
-
Yeah, but Michaels did ( the constitutional partys nominee). And that is pretty funny. Hasnt he learned that we hate people who cant color co-ordinate now?
....what has pop culture done to us?
-
I would love nothing else than to get involved if I could Gillette.
Unfortunely, as you will surely agree, canadians are a sub-race and are not worthy of walking this earth. Americans are the supreme beings of this planet and masters of the universe. They are omnipotent, omniscient and can do no wrong. Did I pretty much describe it as you see it Gillette ?
This kind of attitude is what makes most other countries dislike americans.
Just my opinion.
-
That, whether you see it or not, was a flame, and not worthy of mentioning, as it is extremely prejudiced, eh?
-
IMO, the reason most countries dislike America is because Bush pissed em all off by going into war w/ Iraq and such. I'm pretty sure when Clinton was around we were pretty well liked. Correct me if i'm wrong. My personal explanation of the war - avenging his daddy, Bush senior. BTW, what the HELL ever happened to Osama? Did we just ditch the guy that killed a couple thousand of our people? Then go after a dictator who did nothing to us? (I suppose its possible he could have, but Osama at the time was more important.)
/rant
-
Oh no. I don't like Canadians that much. :D
And the only reason I do tend to pick on Canadians is that A) I can walk there and poke them and B) they are, in general, the only people I can make fun of that don't freak out. If I make fun of say, my fellow Americans, they tend to shoot at me. With large caliber automatic weapons. And since I would rather have a bunch of peaceful people whose principles I generally agree with pissed at me than an inherently violent culture that makes the average Cro-Magnon look like the acme of human intelligence and achievement... I'm going to have to keep poking the Canadians. Sorry.
ps. Anyone that currently has any large caliber automatic weapons pointed at me... Err... The above was a joke! Honest.
-
Hmm....if your asking what happened to Osama, you dont deserve to be talking about politics at this point.
And very nice Gillette. I actually went up there and poked em once.
-
I don't understand, Iluvatar. As far as I know, Bush never wen't after the man responsible for killing a couple thousand people. I guess he did do some bombing over in Afganistan, but I never heard of them finding him and/or killing him.
-
Gillette, no one is expecting this DISCUSSION to make a difference. You've flipped the conversation around thinking that the other stance to the argument is whining. It's a typical reaction of people who blindly follow the way it's always been done, and are afraid of change. When I say it's not fair, that isn't some sort of immature complaint, shouldn't the election for the president of the united states be fair and unbiased??? If anything should be fair in life, this should be it. Just because this is how it's done doesn't make it right, logical, or useful.
-
Please keep the issues out of this. The thread will EXPLODE with arguments if we bring up the war. Let's stick to the EC and the election results as they stand :P
-
You just said that what happened to Osama?
1.) We have been looking for him. Unfortunately, the media controls the country, and public interest waned, thus, the Government (and by proxy media) began to release less and less on it. Just because it isnt said does not mean it is not happening.
2.) Osama released a tape. Which answers the question "What happened to Osama Bin Laden.
I still love you. Have you got that burner working?
P.S: For actual discussion, or at least more civilized, teamspeak is a wonderul tool. You can actually talk without worry of the topic becoming dead!!!! AMAZING!
-
It is fair and unbiased. Those of us who think it should change don't have enough support from the rest of the country to change it. The majority has spoken. If you aren't actively campaigning to change the way things are, you're just complaining. If you are actively trying to change things, then you would already understand the issues and the size of the obstacle that we face (in terms of the majority of american voters)... ergo, you wouldn't be saying that it's not fair.
Unless you think your opinion outweighs the majority of americans, in which case, you might have a point.
-
..Ever notice that nearly no one gave a shit about the electoral college until the last election?
Not saying no one did, but there wasn't nearly as many people supported getting rid of it until 4 years ago...
BTW, I just got back from the ballots and don't think Nader was on the ballot in WI..any other wisconsinites here that noticed that? o_O
-
I think people who didn't really understand the EC figured out what it is capable of last presidential election, and so now that they're educated by example, they realize what a bad system it is. I for one have despised it since middle school when we were taught what it was.
In Ohio Nader was on the ballot, but it was overturned by the courts for some discrepancy in the petition signatures he got, so all the booths have notices that votes for Nader won't be counted :P
-
My vote goes to John Kerry, eh?
-
Folks you know I got nothing but love for you all... :D Core your the man and I've got no problem with yah. In truth you remind me of my best friend... We are total opposites on the concepts of captalism and other such things, but hey that's cool. It' s late and I didn't read all the posts yet. But you know what guys when it gets down to it for us (MXO Furious Angels) none of it matters and as long as we all get in game and kick some serious ass... Well then it's all good as far as I can see. Soon it will be time and I have a feeling we will be rockin' and rollin' over everyone :D
-
^^ Exactly :D
We aint nothing but voters (and hey, some aint even that - including me). Its all just talking.
On the EC -
The EC tries to make things fair for all states, but does it really? The states get 2 EC votes automatically (senators), then a number of other EC votes for congressmen (this is based on population). Therefore, winning bigger states is better than winning smaller ones. Naturally this would be true if it were individual votes used too (larger population means more votes). The different states build a political map, and this makes it appear like states are being won rather than population.
But what I am concerned about is the fact well, Bush would not have got in (2000) if it were down to individual votes, even though it seems like it should have the same effect. Gore can have more voters but still lose! That seems a little strange :)
-
In the 92, 96 and 00 elections, the person who lost the popular vote won the election. Methinks that the electoral college has been on peeps minds for longer than 4 years. :P The controversy in 00 really didn't have all that much to do with the EC. It had a lot more to do with the Supreme Court. And the Florida Gov and AG. The EC got spun up a bit by the docs to detract from the publicity related to all the familial ties.
Anyway. I own land in Canada. I think I'm moving. Maybe I'll just speak French with a Texas accent to keep the locals on their toes.
-
Yup, simple fact is that Bush has now won more popular votes than any president in US history... He is taking more than 50 % of the suppoused oh so important popular vote which no one has done since 1988 (Meaning Clinton didn't get that much and we see how much we was loved). It has been the E.C. which in truth has decided the presidential election over the past several elections as the popular vote has been split up a bunch. Now though (as I said in a previous post in another thread), it is all over but the crying. Bush has won. I say let's drop all the politicking and focus on getting everyone working well in game so we can cement our group team work and be ready for launch.... And more especially PVP (That's when I get the opportunity to kick the poop out of Gillette with Core's help of course)
-
What a sad day for the United States and the rest of the world.
-
i just want to say congrats bush, you found a way to cheat your in again. just look atthe problems in ohio, iowa and new mexico.
-
Bush was already reckless and self-righteous when he knew he would have to run for reelection.
Can you imagine what it will be like now that he knows that he does not have to court voters anymore ?
Whatever. Let's brace ourselves for the next 4 years and wish this administration gets a reality check.
P.S.: Hey Broin, I'm up with helping you beat up Gillette in PvP. He keeps making fun of Canadians and needs to be humbled :D
-
I can't believe he actually conceded... He shoulda waited and counted the ballots. He was instead lazy.
-
Kerry apparently called Bush and conceded Ohio. It's officially over now.
-
I wonder what the final count will be tho'?
The one thing that really always bugged me about Bush, was his use of biblical quotes, but as a metaphore for the US's position with the rest of the world.
a) Blastphemous to those who believe.
b) Ignorant to say the US is the saviour.
Don't get me wrong folks, your president has no affect on my perception of Americans :D
Oh well, hope Bush does better this time around.. :-\ He can pretty much do whatever he wants now.
-
well america is the laughing stock of the entire world. and i pray to god/allah that we rise up and smite him :) not a threat...just a suggestion :)
-
In the 92, 96 and 00 elections, the person who lost the popular vote won the election.
Uh, not quite buddy. Clinton won the popular vote by 6% in 92 (http://www.presidentelect.org/e1992.html) and by 9% in 96 (http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/fe1996/summ.htm). He won both elections as well.
But the argument that the EC protects states rights is like saying I eat milk and cookies to stay trim. The two just don't correlate. By giving larger states many more votes in the EC, it effectively makes the smaller states “less important” and allows the parties to focus on the larger swing states that have a vote. New Mexico, Nevada, and New Hampshire were all basically in play this election, but you rarely saw the candidates going there. Why? Because Ohio, Florida, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin all had a ton more votes.
If each state received one vote and then the person with 26 votes won, then I could see the argument over states rights being valid. That way, each state would be equally important. But under the current format, the EC blatantly discriminates against many states and therefore, tosses the whole “states rights” issue out the window. I understand that the smaller states have fewer people, but so what? The election is not a process where our states decide the President. It should be up the collective "people" to decide.
As somebody before me said, the EC also screws over the individuals who vote in a state that they know will go the other way. For instance, what the hell is my incentive to vote for Kerry here in South Carolina when I know he is going to lose, the same question that Bush supporters ask themselves in New York. You want to improve voter turn out? Then make each and every individual vote count. It’s that simple. Scratch the EC, let it be known that the popular vote will determine the election, and by God I swear we’d see a 150 million voter turnout at the next election.
-
I couldn't agree more Goob.
-
....
It's time for the Democrats to admit defeat. You guys did lose, and Bush won the popular vote, not by a bigger percentage, but a bigger number (which is moot if you look at the amount of voters) than has been since 1988.
Goob:
Goob: Well, your logic is flawed. Your saying Montana and California should have the same vote to protect states rights? Then, your blowing off your oh so important popular vote. Someone could win the popular vote by 10000000, and still lose because the votes came from Florida, Texas, New York and California.
To those outside of the country:
Assholes. Or, at least assholes without knowing it, much like what we appear to the outside world. You insult our leader, and say it does not mirror upon us as a people. Bullshit. Bush had the popular vote this time. Which, if you were to call him an idiot, you would be calling 51% of america idiots. Think about what your saying. You call Bush an idiot, but those who agree with him that just dont happen to be running for office arent, eh? Hypocrisy at its roots.
I know people are gonna dislike this post, because I see this faction is overwhelmingly liberal. Thats ok. Go ahead and say I'm wrong. It'll just show me why I did support Bush and not Kerry in this election. Not because of the issues (They both suck when it comes to issues) but because of there values.
Tbone, delete this if you want.
-
I'm an American, and I think the 51% who voted for him and he himself, are idiots. So whatcha got now!?
If you voted for Bush because of his values that doesn't make you right. Values are a personal thing, one mans beleifs shouldn't be my laws.
i've accepted defeat. my ideology now is to just stay alive for the next four years, and relish in the fact that he cant run for office again.
OH and i'm not a liberal.
-
Is it just me, or do politics, when talked about online, ALWAYS turn into flame wars?
"IF YOU VOTED FOR BUSH YOUR A 2#$%@#$% IDIOT!%!!!11!!one!!"
*sigh* It's sad to see things like this, it's one thing to give your respectful opinion, however, this isn't the place to call someone an idiot for their political beliefs.
-
political beleifs aren't like someone's religious beleifs. there aren't severe repercussions for becoming a jew. there are for electing the wrong president.
-
If it wasnt for Itachi being 100% right, I would insult you syntax. But, alas, I wont.
*Awaits the "thats damn right bitch" post.*
-
Ah Iluvatar.
Always subtle, nuanced and respectful of other opinions.
I guess without that trademark we wouldn't recognize you.
-
A) I did indeed misspeak in my half asleep stupor this morning. What I meant was: Clinton recieved less than 50% of the popular vote and won way more than 50% of the college. (I should not have said lost. I should have said: failed to win the majority.)
B) Nevermind. I don't care enough about what you people think.
-
51% of those who chose to vote wanted Bush, thats fair to say.
a) Although there was a high turnout, only about 17% of young voters turned up. If the rest had turned up they were most likely to vote Kerry.
b) Although politics in the US has had more limelight due to recent events around the world, there are still those who would vote Bush because they don't have the full information, and those who just plain don't like Kerry. The same can be said the other way around.
I'm sure you are aware its a democratic republic - just because you put a leader in place doesn't mean he will live up to the expectations you voted him in for. Although 51% perseve Bush as the best option just now, that doesn't mean that those 51% are assholes - they have an opinion just like everyone else. From within the US, the population is of course biased towards their country, and any slander that may come from elsewhere should be taken as way to push for something better. From outside we can clearly see the way your president has acted, and we do so in a hopefully unbiased manner (well, centrainly from some countries).
To me the elections are important because my folks live in Florida. Whatever the outcome of the election, it will affect them as residents, and then of course me.
If you think/know that this board is mostly liberals, then that type of attitude is pretty much going to stereotype you and the rest of the republicans. Perhaps you felt like you were being cornered or something, and had to lash out, but I think I've been around enough to know that your like that quite a bit anyway ;)
You should know better about "reading in between the lines" on an internet forum. Don't assume and rant, just ask for clarification. I would have much more respect for you if debated the reasons why I thought Mr Bush was an "asshole", but not the 51% that voted for him. Each and everyone of the voters had their own reasons to vote for him, many legitimate, others not so. Just because you have a choice of 2 leaders, doesn't make either one of them not an asshole. Just because you voted for who you believe to be the lesser asshole doesn't mean that he ISN'T an asshole anymore.
asshole.
:D
-
I just wanted to know how that stereotypes me? I suppose it stereotypes mostly everyone to me, but again, the stereotype would already be there for me being republican, and there for you since your a democrat.
And on the asshole issue, I didnt say that he wasnt an asshole. Maybe you need to read between the lines, eh? You said you werent calling everyone who voted for bush an asshole, even though we agree with everything you judge him to be an asshole on. I am an asshole. I'll be one of the first ones to admit it. Where, in that whole damn post, do you see me say Bush is not an asshole? Hypocritical, maybe? EDIT: If you are calling bush an idiot, obviously, you must be going on his views, because I have high doubts that you've actually met him. Thus, you have to agree that saying that about Bush means that people who share his opinions must be assholes, by proxy.
I might as well go into the rest of it.
Again, the young vote did not turn out. They are null in void. You cant say "Kerry would have won if the young people voted." This obviously shows that yound people in America dont give a shit. Does something need to be done about it? I suppose. But it damn well didnt happen this time. You cant say they would have voted for somebody (or "probably" would have), because they obviously just dont give enough of a shit about there country to go out there and vote.
Oh yeah, the reason I didnt debate you about the reasons you think that bush is an asshole is because I dont think that kind of specific discussion between you and me belongs on this forum. I'll send you a PM, however, if you want.
And in finishing-May my scars become my stars, your scars become your stars, and the people of the US wake up and discover that they need to learn what stars are.
Edit 3:Goob, what I was trying to say was there is no way to protect both voters and states rights. The founding fathers obviously saw this as a problem, and sought for an answer. The EC, whether you like it or not, is a fairly good balance for state and voter rights.
-
Iluvatar: No, I'm not for counting each state as one vote. I was simply saying that the "all states are equal" logic could only be used if that was the setup. But I am in no, way, shape, or form campaigning for it. I want to simply do away with the EC and have the results simply fall to the popular vote.
And Gillette, you are right, Clinton did fail to win 50% of the popular vote. However, you also have to consider the fact that Ross Perot carried 8% of the vote in 1992, which had he not ran, you could make the case that Clinton could have won 50%.
-
I have lost faith in the majority (obviously) of the American people for not being able to see through Bush's lies and deceit. But hey, that's their problem. But wait! Now it's ours, cuz we elected the guy.
-
Ignorance is bliss.
But I still love you.
-
Well, if you think that I believe that the people who voted for an "asshole" are also "assholes" then thats your right. You are wrong, because that's not what I think - I'm never really good at clarifying in posts, but I tried.
I only used the word "asshole" since you called me that first :P It was just a term that really had no meaning - the point was, now a label was on it as such, I was trying to point out that the same label isn't on the people
You chose who you think is best, but the people YOU called assholes - those OUTSIDE the US - see Bush's effect on the World. I'm sure you do see it too, but what can you do? Vote for Kerry? You believe he could make things worse! He very well could... so you voted for the who you believe is the most competent. You see the effects more, because you are inside, so you are more heated about who is your leader.
Being from Scotland, I have a long seated hatred for the English... yeah right, these days it makes no sense at all. So this said, my regards towards Tony Blair are just as bad.. we really have no one else at the moment.
I like trying to discuss stuff without getting angry.... try to get to the roots etc etc.
Anyway, you know I love ya too.. no need to PM, this thread was made for discussions about the topic, no need to take it further - out of this topic you just the same old Illuvatar, heated as always!
-
If it wasnt for Itachi being 100% right, I would insult you syntax. But, alas, I won't.
*Awaits the "that's damn right bitch" post.*
Arguing with you is pointless Iluvatar.
-
And attempting to like you is impossible Syntax. As it was meant in the context of a joke (I like to do that sometimes, you know. Continuous arguing leads to nothing. You gotta have some laughter! Does anybody remember laughta! (Side Note- Tell me what song thats from on this thread and I'll send you a shiny five dollar bill)), I will disregard what you said. Of course, spin that any way you want, peoples.
And then, we have Ketas post.
If you meant or not, thats fine. But, accept that it is logical to take it that way. Whether you intended or not, it came out that way man. If you didnt, thats cool, if you did, thats cool.
Yeah, I was following your second paragraph at first, then you lost me. Could you help me "comprehend" that one?
Meh, I said assholes about the people who are telling us who are leader should be, when again, he is our leader. Yes, Kerry may or may have not been better for the outside world (I admit, he probably would have been a better foreign policies lead), but we also vote based on what happens inside of our country, much like you said. I cant tell if you were trying to argue a point, or just spouting random thoughts, so again, I kinda dont have much to say.
And, yeah, i dislike Blair as well. I dislike Bush more than Blair, but yet again I dislike Kerry more than I dislike Bush. Much like the last election, it was picking the lesser of two evils for me.
HOLY CRAP! THIS JUST IN!
http://stuff.ubersite.com/1099447937235923392/1/next_president.jpg
YES! IT HAS FINALLY HAPPENED!!!!
-
Oh please, don't waste your time, it would be one sided.
-
Sure, sure. Now, how bout that prime?
-
No, thats cool, wasn't really debating, just drawing the current picture, I think we are both cool on that then ;)
2nd para?:
I only used the word "asshole" since you called me that first :P It was just a term that really had no meaning - the point was, now a label was on it as such, I was trying to point out that the same label isn't on the people
I meant it could be any word. Asshole, idiot, fool, whatever. Its just a label, but it didn't mean the people who voted for him have the same label (reasons followed). heh, clearer? meh... aight this is toast I think lol
-
Meh, I think your missing my point and adressing another one, but whateva! And the toast part is confusing me.
You crazy foreigners! Heheh.
-
I second Syntax's "Arguing with Iluvatar is pointless" it just doesnt work.
-
It's all bullshit.
-
I'd vote for Optimus Prime.
-
I voted for Kang.
-
Someone has been watching a little too much Simpsons.
-
I'd like to see Johnny Bravo as president.
-
bah! i dont like posting on this topic because it only reminds me of how little time we have before we go into a nuclear war. the time has come for revolution, which side will you choose?
-
I choose the side that has the most beautiful women!
-
I choose the Terminators.
-
Hilarity!
http://static.vidvote.com/movies/bushuncensored.mov
-
Is that video recent Ket i.e. post-election ?
Anyway, that video says a lot about the man.
Behind closed doors, he probably flips the bird to the international community.
The guy used to be a pot head and a "half-alcoholic" before he found JESUS (Praise the Lord !). You guys know he was arrested for DUI when he was younger right ?
What a disgrace for the american presidency.
-
HA! unfortunately George earns cool points for that video.
-
MY GOD HE DRANK? AND DID DRUGS? WTF!?
/sarcasm
So does 95% of america. Deal with it.
-
Well that 95% of america is not president. Deal with it.
-
heh, yeah that vid is funny, cool points indeed... I think its slightly older tho (well, he does look just as old today tho).
What disturbs me is if he is "born again" (around the age of 40), this doesn't seem like a Christian attitude! Heh, he certainly secured the far-right Christian community through his recent acts, something that almost cost him the presidency last time around!
lol Ah well, who cares now? Its just funny. Yeah Itachi, lots of people drink etc etc. There's that classic "puzzle" where you are given the routines of three men (one drinks heavily and a womanizer... )anyway the vegetarian who doesn't smoke or drink is Hitler... you all know it.
Meh, I think your missing my point and adressing another one
I didn't think I was, you said that if I label Bush as something, then I automatically label the 51% that voted for him. This was me retorting to that statement of yours.
-
Well that 95% of america is not president. Deal with it.
..Obviously it is? You just said he was a semi-alcoholic and a stoner i believe?
And like Keta said about the 3 men for president scenario(yea i remember that one from middle school :p), just because they drank and did drugs doesn't mean he's a horrible person. Hell alot of the worlds most history influincing people did drugs and drank their share of liquor. I'm willing to bet that if we had a poll on these forums many of your clan mates will have tried some drug at least one point in their lives, and most of them will admit to drinking liquor on the occasion.
Just because they did these things in the past doesn't make them less of a person, or less wise.
While that video is comical, at least it shows that he's a human being with a sense of humor. I'd rather have someone that's human representing me and my country than a vegetarian that hasn't experianced fun in his life. The video says alot about the man you said? HOW?!
You're reading a tad more between the lines than that's actually there. Maybe you should pick up a bottle of jack and loosen up a little my friend.
-
I think everything that can be said here, has been said. I (we) could go on forever about this subject, and I believe it was Syntax who said in the thread about eligoh leaving that "We will just keep repeating ourselves" or something to that affect. I'll argue with you guys all you want, even thought apparently it's completely my fault that the argument will go nowhere. Oh well.
I call for a group hug. Anybody?
-
he wasn't just a stoner, he was a big coke head. just pointing that out, none of that affected my view of either candidate. and on that note neither did their military records. those are the sorts of things i never look at in a campaign. i just go for whose views and interests most accurately portray my own.
-
I don't have anything against people who drink or do drugs.
I have a problem when one of those people has his finger on the red button.
The president of the united states, the leader of the free world should be the best and finest america has to offer. Not a half-wit, no matter how funny or "human" he is. If he was working as a mechanic at Jiffy Lube, that would be another story.
And by the way I'm loose enough my friend thank you. That guy just scares the hell out of me.
-
and I believe it was Syntax who said in the thread about eligoh leaving that "We will just keep repeating ourselves"
Round and round it goes....when it stops, no one knows. :P
-
Red Button?
-
Forget it.
-
I smoke pot, I'm not afraid to tell you guys, and if anyone thinks I am a bad person (apart from Iluvatar) then please tell me. I fucking HATE stereotypes and the labellers, drives me up the wall. Pretty much all my friends in College smoke pot, some do other things, and I wouldn't say that ANY of them are bad people EVER. I'm tempted to lock this topic but I'll leave it for now, the original point was a good one.
-
I personally don't have anything against smoking pot. I haven't done it in a long time but I've tried that in college, like many people have. As Clinton said, I didn't inhale ;)
I don't see a big difference between a joint and a beer. In both cases, it only becomes a problem when you abuse of it. A big proportion of the younger population is smoking pot or has done it in the past.
A couple of years ago here in Canada the government came really close to decriminalizing possession of cannabis. The traffic of pot would have still been illegal but you wouldn't have got arrested for having some pot on you. It's pointless anyway. It's like arresting someone because he has a beer in his coat. It costs a lot to the government to arrest a "small fish" like that and doesn't accomplish squat. Too bad that bill wasn't adopted. Again, the american government twisted the canadian government's arm into not doing it. They didn't want that to influence americans into using more drugs or something like that. Whatever.
-
I think smoking is retarded. Pot, cigarettes, cigars, opium, whatever!
Mmmm this cancer tastes so damn good. Inhaling smoke is so feebleminded.
-
Let's bludgeon this back on topic, shall we?
(http://garth.hn.org/jland.gif)
-
Tempted to lock it because I saw some fritction that looked as though it was getting slightly personal, which isn't good.
I totally agree, CoreDump, they are both essentially drugs. When was the last time someone went out for a spliff then kick someones head in? It's unheard of, not saying that I think people who drink are bad, they have different effects like most drugs do.
Economically speaking, it would be better to legalise all drugs. This would decrease inflation because companies would sell the drugs, reduce the fear and removes the stereotypes people have for drug users and give the police a chance to worry about the real criminals like the rapists and the murderers (and George Bush and Tony Blair :)), instead of the people who sit at home on the sofa staring at their hands grinning.
-
I'LL BE DAMNED IF YOU THINK I'M GOING TO LIVE IN CANADA!!!!!!!!
p.s. doesn't pot actually prevent some types of cancer not cause it..? bah nvm no point arguing..
-
Yeah that's the picture I saw on CNN last night.
I was laughing my head off !!!
There was a guy on CNN saying that people should only fly over the "red" states. Nobody should drive through that. It's a strange and hard to understand place :-)
P.S.: At least Itachi you live in a "blue" state so I forgive you.
-
The government would never lie or mislead us. Oh ye of little faith. That's why they made this film to teach us the true nature of evil: Reefer Madness. Clickie and searchie for 'reefer madness' (http://donvitorrent.com). (It's public domain and legal to torrent and download and spread and stuff.)
-
I think smoking is retarded. Pot, cigarettes, cigars, opium, whatever!
Mmmm this cancer tastes so damn good. Inhaling smoke is so feebleminded.
Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong, you can't make everyone stop so might as well just get used to it. Theres nothing wrong with drugs, just peoples attitudes towards them. Don't like them, don't do them. Just don't try and ruin a good time for everyone else.
Also I feel like pointing out you don't inhale cigar smoke. Pot smoke isn't as bad for you as cigarette smoke either and it doesn't make you feel any better.
The best drugs are magic mushrooms because, they are vegetables so they aren't bad for you. They can also count as 1 of your fruit/vegetable portions for the day, and they give you one hell of a good time.
-
So what food group are magic mushrooms a part of ?
;)
-
Shrooms aren't the tastiest things to land the face of the earth however =x
Besides, since when is weed bad for you? Although no point in comparing weed and shrooms since they're completely different..just a thought though :)
-
Well they are part of the Psilosyben (sp? it looks horrible) mushroom family, and they make you feel a bi sick, but 30 grams for £10 is pretty good... Fireworks tomorrow night should be ALOT more interesting...
-
Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong, you can't make everyone stop so might as well just get used to it. Theres nothing wrong with drugs, just peoples attitudes towards them. Don't like them, don't do them. Just don't try and ruin a good time for everyone else.
Also I feel like pointing out you don't inhale cigar smoke. Pot smoke isn't as bad for you as cigarette smoke either and it doesn't make you feel any better.
quote me on where i said drugs. where in that whole post did i say drugs? waiting.... anywhere? drugs? anyone? the word drugs?
i said smoking, as in inhaling smoke. your lungs weren't built to take in smoke. and let's just ignore centuries of medical facts on how smoke is bad for you. i'm sure when there's a fire and someone dies from smoke inhalation, it was just a funny joke or something. because that's just my opinion that smoke is bad, and people don't die from opinions. (they also don't die from heroine, cocaine, lsd, or pcp, since it's my opinion that they're bad. crack-heads were born that way, really, it's not the drugs wasting away their brains)
-
w00t
its become an illegal substance thread... ok ok
I smoke "pot". Haven't mentioned it before as it never came up (that I noticed) I actually prefer it from alcohol. It affects me, but I don't smoke to excess, I am always still coherent.
In the UK, people drink excessively. "Binge" drinking is on the rise, and pubs/clubs shut at 3am/4am. A massive surge of drunk people are ejected onto the street, and take up police resouces and cause vandalism and "breach of the peace".
I think all stoners pretty much stay at home, play the PS2, and go to bed. And we are the ones penalised! Of course, I think someone mentioned - its extremely hard to ban an already legal substance. And they wouldn't, they make too much from tax (same from cigs - oh, the taxes go to our Health Service, and TB has made it so that they pretty much wont treat you if you have smoke/drink problems of your own cause).
The have downgraded cannabis to grade C drug, means the police would just take it off you, tell you to bugger off, and smoke it themselves (I know some guys on the force, so take my word on the smoking bit - however, as long as they do their job when on duty I think thats fair, in a way). Some guy in Edinburgh tried to open a cafe where you could bring your OWN to smoke - he provided food, internet, and err what are they called "purifiers" to make sure you get the best smoke, but least harmful chems). But they shut him down, but a bold move on the right road (in my eyes).
If only Sir Walter Raleigh had brought back weed instead of tobacco... can you imagine what impact that would have had on society?
I also say , that out of all drugs ALCOHOL has a really really bad "come down".... commonly referred to as a hangover! As for other drugs, tried a few... hey I did go to uni... but of course I have settled down more now. I'm glad I did try some others, I'm also glad I never got hooked on those.
EDIT:
some nice links:
Quick News Atricle:
http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1043242004
Police Statement
http://www.lbp.police.uk/press_release/articles/2004%5CJanuary%5C29%5C4.htm
-
Just a little interesting info for those that do not know! :)
A hangover isn't the "comedown" for alcohol, the hangover is what happens from dehydration! :) Alcohol dehydrates your body, me and my friends have found that if we drink a liter(or two) of water during the night of your drinking, you won't get a hangover.. Not a proven fact, but it's worked for me and all of my friends that have done it for the last year or so~
And syntax - all drugs aren't that bad for you. Marijuana is safer(health wise) than alcohol. If i'm not mistaken 'mushrooms' aren't health damaging either.
Doesn't mean it's an excuse to do them if your locals law prohibit them...but medically wise, there's not much wrong with it.
Edit :
btw oronos -- fireworks for what? (sorry if i'm not all knowing about other countries holidays :) )
-
again people are reading too much into what i said, and adding their own parts. i said heroine, cocaine, lsd, and pcp. /sigh
oh and for those combating hangovers, it's easier to do when you know the science behind it all, here's a great article on a great website...
http://health.howstuffworks.com/hangover.htm
-
Interestingly enough I was right :)
It has water listed as a remedy and prevention for a hangover!
-
Guy Fawlkes night, British 4th of July basically.
-
Well... the difference being that, ah go read a history book.
And Syntax, everything you mentioned is a drug, 'pot' or whatever you want to call it, the nicotine in ciggys... they are all classified as drugs.
-
I smoke pot.
Now, do you really care? Truly, do you really care about me? No, right now, if your feeling anything, your merely feeling conviction against the pot, not the fact of me smoking it. Your a hypocrite if you push to ban smoking "for the benefit of the people", when your crusade isnt to help me, its to get that drug or substance that you hate so much off the street. Hating pot, that plain idiocy. Not recognizing it for what it is, a pleasurable herb that will evantually kill you, is ignorance.
People have the right to burn an American Flag in the US. I agree with that right. But yet, in the US, pot is illegal. What does that tell you about our society?
A person has a right to free speech, and if that includes burning a flag, why cant that person have the right to burn chronic?
-
5th July, not 4th (that means tonight!). Where else can you celebrate the failed blowing up of political parties with fires and explosions? The shop down the road sells £5 fireworks to 10 year olds that explode in your face.
Oh, and yes there are remedies for "come-downs", although hangovers can be fought with water, the dehydration is a direct result from alcohol on the body. If you water it down, then the abuse of alcohol (which is a liquid) is naturally diluted. The same can be applied to other drugs (water may have to be substituted).
-
double post time!!
Not recognizing it for what it is, a pleasurable herb that will evantually kill you, is ignorance.
People have the right to burn an American Flag in the US. I agree with that right. But yet, in the US, pot is illegal. What does that tell you about our society?
a) I'm not sure that weed has EVER killed anyone. I have no clue tho', be interesting to find out.
b) It tells me that burning flags do not alter minds, or produce hallucinogenic effects, that may cause unpredictable behaviour.. heh, but yeah I see what you mean (naturally as a fellow smoker ;))
-
Congragulations, guys... for turning this political thread into a drugs one. Anyway, I just wanted to add to the "what does this say about our society" thing. Amadeus is rated R for brief nudity... I don't see how an R rating can come from that.
-
There are no recorded deaths from the direct use of marijuana in any country, that doesn't count people that crash a car and perhaps die but even that would be only just in the double figures annually.
-
There are so many thigs that can happen from weed, IE car deaths, death by raid (or any other extra chemicals), etc.
And there is some chemical in the US flag that does something to you....Iforgot exactly what it was, but when I first heard about it I was like "whoah dude. thats awesome and fucked up all rolled into one, uh, thing....."
-
lol, there's a chamical in the US flag? What is that intentional on ALL US flags so that people in Iraq who burn them will eventually die as a result!! heh Is it to do with a certain colour (dye) or is that just some makes of flags?
Sorry, yeah when I meant deaths I meant directly related. Car accidents may be because you were under the influence of drugs, but it could have happened without being high/drunk etc. I'm talking about directly related (ie death from excess liver damage due to excess drinking). I hope you buy stuff with as little chemicals on them as possible btw.
-
Ya, you won't die just from smoking marijauna (at least no one has yet). It's the same with LSD (though LSD will mess up ur mind forever, especially in large quantities). People die from it because they do stupid shit on it. However, I just thought i'd let everyone know since we're on the topic of drugs, toking and drinking at the same time is always a bad idea. Pot keeps you from hurling. You drink a whole bunch and you don't hurl then you don't stop and pretty soon ur dead from alcohol poisoning (that's not a good thing). Back to the point though, no one has EVER been reported dieing directly from smoking pot. It is technically possible, but you would have to smoke for an extreme length of time (at which point you would be too stoned to hold the joint).
-
i know im double posting but whatever just wanted to give everyone this link i just found: http://www.drugtext.org/sub/marmyt1.html
It's interesting and thought since we were sorta on the topic everyone could have a read.
-
Sorry to bring this thread back on topic but here's something interesting I've heard today.
Since George Bush has been elected, the web site of Immigration Canada (the public agency that controls immigation to Canada) has received an average of six times more hits daily than before he was elected.
I guess many americans are considering getting the hell out of "Jesusland" and moving to Canada :-)
Read the full story here:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41327
-
So if the U.S. is now Jesusland that would make Canada..... Hell-land... Sinville... Socialist Village, Sodom and Gamora? :D
-
Damn right.
Everybody should come visit Canada. It the best place to get cheap booze, good doobies and loose women.
I've got nothing against playing the harp but hell is just more fun ;)
P.S.: Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison and Kurt Cobain say hi. :D
-
Wow, wow....
Read every post from top to bottom, and I gotta say, som interesting ideas. Unfortunately or unfortunately in some people's supposed opinion I haven't been able to post though. Nice to see over 100 posts and only been alive a couple of days - really interesting.
Anywayz, since I haven't been able to give it here's my opinion concerning who I (would have) voted for and why:
Well this is no surprise. John Kerry. It just comes down to I don't believe in George Bush's policies. He's against stem-cell research, wants to change the ways of abortion, against gay-marriages, attacks countries without reliable and full-proof evidence, put us in an incredible national debt, tried to use his profession of the christian religion to gain the trust of special-interest groups, has virtually done a 180* change in the way the world saw us in just_four_years, wants to plant potentially up to 4 conservative, conservative supreme court justices (and that one scares the hell out of me) and of course, the creme de le creme reasons, he chokes on pretzels and is incapable of finishing a sentence in 15 words or less.
I've given tons of proof for my views, even though some may have labeled it as opinion, I wasn't able to find any concrete claims on their part to combat against. Come at my views with something sort resembling evidence and then we can talk. Eh...either way if you have anything to say about my posts I'm sure I can show you a reason why I'm saying what I'm saying.
My opinion concerning the EC:
I wanted to hug Gilette when he correctly pointed out that although we throw around the word "democracy" we actually aren't. We're a republic, which means we choose representatives to represent us at a great congregation of other representatives. They hold our interests and debate our points so that we don't have to. They're the people in "I'll have your people call my people," sort of thing. Even though I disagree(ed) with the EC, I do understand why it is here. Is it outdated? Maaaybe. But do I believe that it serves some purpose? Yes. It helps to combat the issue that some small states do not get the same amount of votes as everyother large one would. Even so, I believe that the popular vote would be a better, as it definately is, indicator of who the people wanted as a president.
My opinion concerning people of of the country having views about our country:
First of all, IMHO, I cannot even believe how someone would have objections to this. Why? Well first of all, sometimes it takes an outsider to help tell you whats right in front of your face. If you limited your learning, and your opinions, and your thinking, and your inter-activity to just people in this country, in this age, then you're going to need some help my friend. I say this age because this is an age when you can be in California, and visually talk to someone in South Africa and have never personally met the person before in your life. What happens in New Zealand in one hour, can be transmitted across the world in less then 30 minutes. I in fact love to hear people outside of the country talk about our politics. Just think of it this way guys, if they're paying THAT much attention to our politics, for whatever reason, then for some reason it's important, and for that reason alone it is important to listen to them. Ya dig?
My opinion concerning drugs:
First of all, how in the heck did a political thread turn into narcotics? Wow...Definate 0_- on that one. Anyways, to those who dislike people who dislike pot, I say the same thing to those who dislike the people who like pot, live and let live. Do I personally agree with it? No. Mary-J-Juana is called the gateway drug for a reason...I mean I understand there are those who are going to be those who go like, "Well I do it, and I've never tried those drugs," or yadda yadda and things like that. And I say, "Congratulations. Now, you're one of the lucky ones, you didn't get hooked. Because seriously, look at those strung out on coke, on heroin, on all those freaky types of drugs. Do YOU honestly believe that they started out on the strongest things out there? Hell no. They started out on something simple, harmless, and supposedly innocent as good 'ole Mary Jane."
As all I can do is give my opinion, I say don't do it. I don't really think anything too bad about the people who do it, other then it gives a little explanation to as why you do some of the way crazy things you do ;) Honestly, if you have a hangup about me having a *tiny* hangup then why are you complaining about people haveing hangups at all? My feelings aren't going to affect how I feel about playing with you, as I really honestly couldn't care. It'd be the same if I was anti-gay (which I'm not) and you were gay. It really would be irrelevant because how and why would that come up with us being gaming buddies? So I say to those who have any hang-ups about drugs or hang-ups about people telling you you can or can't do drugs I say to hell with it. Discussing the topic of drugs is fine, but pushing your views on another person will always be wrong.
To All A Goodnight, And A Merry Christ -err...Thanksg -err...Day...
-
I think this says it all ;-)
(http://img62.exs.cx/img62/803/image0011.jpg)
-
That's disturbing, how can your average IQ be THAT low even in Conneticut, 113 is pretty fucking low. As far as I know, my IQ is roughly 133, but that's only from a couple of tests I did on the net. One was from Tickle (http://www.tickle.com) which I heard was quite reliable, but then it could be a load of shit. Still 113 average means there are some pretty dense people out there, I don't actually know what Britain/Englands average IQ is but I pray it isn't as low as that..
-
Here's something interesting:
Look at the gallery.
http://72.3.131.10/
-
IQ results can vary. Sometimes 150 or so is genius, other times 115 is.
It depends on where the test was taken.
Coredump - I actually got an email from a friend with that link!