The Furious Angels
FA Discussion => General => Topic started by: Anonymous on June 01, 2004, 03:42:02 pm
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One thing that I don't understand about the matrix online, is why are we still delving into the matrix? We have a truce, why free more minds and why try to hack it in general.
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Because we Zionists don't want the matrix at all keeping people inside. The Machinists, wants to keep the matrix, and the ones working for the Exiles just wants to dominate the matrix.
So we, being a Zionist faction, of course wants the matrix destroyed and minds freed.
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not just that, but when the truce was made the machines promised anyone who would "like" to be freed would be freed. and like morpheus said, most people are so intwined with the matrix that telling them otherwise would be disasterous (something to that effect). so we could tell everyone this is not real which would bring total chaos or let them live out their lives, unplugging people as they did.
ZInk
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Well that makes sense, lol.
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Yeah my definition of Zionist rather - is nto to destroy the matrix, but to protect Zion - at all costs (which necessarily doesn't mean destroying the matrix) and freeing not every human, but those that only want to be freed. Why would you want to bring in an unruly human to a peaceful civilization that didn't want to be there in the first place? That would only bring about discord and confusion.
Leave the humans there that want to stay. All of the humans are going to be given anothr chance, a second choice. If they choose to stay in the matrix they forget it exists, we don't worry about them, but if they choose to leave it's our responsibility to get them out. Also Zuron the storyline is going to be made when the game comes out much more so then now - there are going to be monthly movies - cinematics an actual rewspaper that subtly points out possible missions and things you'll have to read into - it's going to be so great.
Patience my friend, is a virtue.
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See those little things like the progressing storyline, the movies and the newspaper are the little things that are going to make this game turn out soo awesome.
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My definition of a zionist is that the matrix needs to be destroyed because "No one is free unless all are free." As long as the matrix exists there is a chance that the human race could be reinslaved and everyone's well being and freedom is at stake due to its existence. If it was just that everyone who wants to stay in the matrix can stay and those who don't wont have to then there is really no point in the battle between machinists and zionists because they would have just agreed on that point and have become friends.
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I'd have to agree with Eclipse on this one. As long as we keep freeing more minds, slowly but surely, everyone will wake up and there will be no need to "destroy" the matrix.
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It needs to be destroyed because many years into the future the machines and humans are bound to start fighting again and the machines will go hey lets use that matrix thingy again. If it is destroyed there is a far lower chance of this happening because the machines and humans would have to work together to rebuild the real world and become friends in the process.
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Either way if the war starts out again we are kinda screwed. If we destroy it (or release everyone from it, thus destroying it.) then everybody still inside would not be able to handle the sudden release. Also what's to stop them from programming another one. If we let it live, well, then they can still use it.
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the war will start, but not for another couple of centuries when man and machine co-excist once again and it stirs up discrimination like in the animatrix. i believe they portrayed it very well in that animated movie. how it all started. awesome!
ZInk
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yeah definitely but it would be better to destroy it once and for all because if everybody is free whats the use of it? the only reason they had it was to keep humans occupied while they used them as millions of energizer bunnies. so if they keep the matrix it shows they plan to reenslave humans when they feel the truce has worn thin.
thats my opinion!
8) <steps off soap box>
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Remember, the machines in the matrix movies are only using humans like we use machines in real life. Would you like machines to rise up against you? I dont htink destroying the matrix would solve anything. All the people connected would die, and the machines would only get more pissed at zion, andf this time they would destroy them, as the humans would have nothing to offer the machines. A zionist is someone who will protect zion at all costs. Why get Zion destroyed, and millions of people killed, all to make the machines have a harder time of getting energy?
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The idea is to destroy the matrix AFTER freeing all human minds, Iluvatar.
Naturally, this entails that this is a long term process, since there have got to be millions (maybe billions?) of people connected to the Matrix.
Essentially, to be able to do this, the disconnected humans must be able to rebuild cities and create human nations once more. This entails that man and machine must cooperate, or at least have a truce, which allows this. That part isn't our job. That's for diplomats and the council operating from Zion to decide (though it may become a hot issue as time goes on).
As Zion operatives inside the matrix, our job consists of: saving and freeing all the humans we can (as long as we have the means to support them), preventing all machine interference in our mission, protecting exiles on OUR side, and making sure the "other" exiles (you know of whom I'm speaking) do not interfere in our mission.
I may have missed something, but this is our mission within the scope of the Matrix. At the moment, we are not diplomats, though we may find ourselves thrust into such a role unexpectedly.
Although our goal is the freeing of all human minds and the destruction of the matrix, that doesn't mean that we have to continue a war with the machines. We're bound to lose that one, if it comes to war again. Best, then, to find a way to cooperate with them. In that case, the Matrix may reemerge, but not in its current form. Gone would be living one's entire life inside a crimson pod. Gone would be growing human children, and liquidating the dead to feed them. Instead, the Matrix may become more of an interface between human and machine relations. We can better communicate and interact with them, in such an environment. It may also become a recreation area for humans, when we're able to afford such conveniences. In short, it would be for temporary jack-ins, for either play or business or other man/machine relations.
That's just my view, however. I'm not the decision maker in such things. Neither is anyone else in the FA, for the moment.
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If the matrix is destroyed and everybody is freed then the machines would have no energy source, thus they would become extinct. Humans can live without the machine but the machine cannot.
Would the machines be stupid enough to realease everyone and meet their own diestruction?
They are about 100 times smarter than humans
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Two things to think about.
1. The Architect mentioned that there are some levels of existence (or whatever) the machines are willing to accept. However, this is more or less a doomsday scenario they had planned, in case the Matrix does go down. They won't want to do this if the Matrix is still a viable energy source.
2. Freeing everyone from the Matrix is going to take a heck of a lot of time. During this time, the machines can be looking for another source of energy. Someone mentioned a while ago that if both man and machine eventually are able to cooperate, it may be possible to repair the sky. Besides, we don't really have any idea what the machines have been doing while humanity has been trapped below.
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Catalyst is completly right. The only way to destroy the matrix is to slowly free more and more minds. As that's happening the machines will be forced to find another source of energy. (possibly the sky)
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Okay everyone, the machines always had a source of power. HELLO!!! THIS IS THE FUTURE!!!!!!! hasn't anyone seen the jetsons? they can just build giant solar towers above the sky and they will be fine.
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Yeah...next thing you know, everyone in Zion will have a robotic rooster to wake them all up in the morning.
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We Zionists, by nature, are the antagonists of the story. We are the bad guys. The Machines give those inside the Matrix food and shelter and protection, while allowing them to live a much better life than they'd get in the 'real world.' Not only that, but with Neo's sacrifice, the Machines gave those still plugged in the choice. So those who remained in the Matrix are doing so because they Chose To. Whether they did so consciously or unconsciously is irrelevant. They made the decision, and We, as Zionists, are not respecting their desires.
The sky is still scorched. Without human's for power, the Machines will die. Not only are us, the Zionists, disrespecting the jacked-in ones wishes, but we are willing to wipe out the Machine race in order to do so, because we have the delusion that total freedom comes before all else.
The Machinists respect the decision those jacked-in made. The Machinists may even wish to belong to the Matrix as well. They understand that the Machines rely on the Matrix for their very survival, and they are sympathetic enough to their cause to fight for it. What is the Machinist's cause? To respect the choices of others.
In Reloaded and Revolutions, Choice plays an underlining role. Neo's choice got us to where we are today. As Zionists, we are desecrating his sacrifice, and putting our own values above other people's choices and desires.
We, as Zionists, are selfish, delusional men and women who see our choice as more important than anyone elses. We, as Zionists, are the bad guys of this story. We are the Agent Smith's of The Matrix Online.
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"To be great is to be misunderstood." - Emerson
All great men and women have been called traitors in their time.
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The same could be said of the Machinist as far as being the bad guys. They really don't give the humans a choice in the beginning considering they're only babies when they are born. So in light of that the mahinces are just as bad as we are if that's the case, because they don't give the humans a real choice. Humanity is forced into bondage whether we would want it or not, plus Morpeous said that there are those who are hopelessly dependent on the system. Those are the ones who are beyond the ability to accept change willingly considering how long they've been connected to the Matrix. Keep in mind that Morpheous also said they don't free a mind past a certain age so it's almost impossible to free every human mind, but one can hope.
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Very well put, Tyshalle. Good--Bad its all a frame of mind.
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True.
As a very brief counter-argument, the only "choice" those in the Matrix are given is the subliminal one. Nearly everyone accepts the program, and this is not a conscious choice. They are living in a world of ignorance, not realizing the truth.
The true test would be to make everyone aware of the Matrix, what it is, how they're living a lie, then allow them to make a choice. Personally, I still think most of them would continue to accept the Matrix, because people generally prefer the status quo, and such a change would be way too radical.
On the other hand, there are bound to be quite a few who are pissed off that they're only batteries powering the Machines. The "Man" really is keeping them down. You don't need me to point out the irony of that sentence.
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Still it's a bit strange that humans were the source of power they chose, when you think about all the alternatives for power supplies we have today. Maybe they are to smart to build a nuclear powerplant, but if they are so far into the future, I assume they would be able to make fusionplants?
Anyways, I guess we should be glad they chose us humans. If not we wouldn't had MxO upcoming :).
~371
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Actually "The Machine" is keepeing them down lol.
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Well, probably why the humans were chose as the source of power is for retaliation. If you check out the special features on the revolutions disc(i think its in the animatrix as well), we actually opressed machines for a good amount of time. Even after they had become a peace loving, flourishing economy country, we as humans denied them entry into the the U.N. Of course they were going to feel righteous vengeance towards humans. Thats why you cant call machines antagonists, as that would be saying the humans were right in persacuting machines that essentially, were human. I think that The Matrix was all about hipocracy. The humans should know that they were getting their due, that karma was catching up with them. Although I agree that yes, people should be freed from the matrix, it shouldnt be about destroying it. A zionist is named a zionist because they hold the interests of Zion at heart, not the interests of destroying the matrix. A more appropriate name for one who wishes the destruction of the matrix is "Wishful Thinker". Although the machines will allow the people who decide that they wish to leave the matrix to leave, I doubt theyll tolerate the freeing of extra minds.
Sorry about now putting that into paragraphs. I really didnt know where to seperate it at.
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Ok guys.....Eclipse's turn.
If we're going tos tate things, we have to know what the movie said. (No this is not a flame or whatever, it's a reminder.) The machines WILL NOT cease to exist if they give up the matrix. As Catylast said before the architect said that they have other means of survival. Obviously, if they're still using the matrix the other means are lower and not as fit for their gigantic needs as the matrix is.
As far as to say that humans are the atagonists, I would say true, but only for the beginning, and somewhat now. There is blame on both parts. The matrx was created because man could not control his ignorance. He could not control his intolerance. So he has brought to the point of extinction and forced into subjection, submission. He was forced into a cage. Kinda ironic isn't it? I mean man puts everything below him in a cage. Animals, "criminals" etc etc.
Anywayz after the initial ignorance the machines could only do what their creators would do. They retailiated. They were formed in teh likeness of man, given a inteligence, one of its own, so it used it. It created the matrix. What you guys have to understand is that the subliminal choice, while some may call it unfair, is not given later on, but it's given at birth. If it wasn't the humans wouldn't breast feed, they wouldn;t suck on a matrix-generated pacifier. They accept the program. If you look at Reloaded this was the function of the oracle. She was made to make ppl accept the program. Now of course some don't. Which is how the First One got out.
The matrix needs not to be destroyed. It needs to survive. Why destroy another race, for doing excatly what homo sapiens have done for thousands of years? For enslaving a lower? Even if you don't want to look at it that way like Marss said, (from Morpheous also) we cannot free a mind after it's reached a certain age. He said that it has problems letting go.
If you choose to believe the fact of the matter when Morpheous said that as long as the matrix exists the human race will never be free - know this. He was wrong. "I have dreamed a dream, but now that dream is gone from me." He wanted the matrix to be destroyed, Neo wanted peace. He aslo wanted the human race to be free, and that's done. They have a choice to be free! Whether or not they choose it is not up to us. We cannot force them to make a choice, that in itself undermines the whole concept of the very word.
Also, they cannot build solar spikes into the sky. Remember when Neo went into the sky to get away from the Senteniels? They all got fried, including his ship. The constant electricity knocks all power systems out.
We cannot kill them, or destroy them fro doing something that was in tehir nature, what is is our nature. No I'm not saying forive their crimes, but keep in mind we committed crimes also. Judge not lest ye be judged.
The matrix does not need to be destroyed.