An invite to the clan for my Star Wars RPG

[Anonymous]

*Edited...sadlyLol...I *could* forgive you calling some people in here a "lazy ass little poopstick" but I will NOT allow you to just discredit the trilogy. Oh Hell No. I am going to call you out, because you are wrong and don't have a clue what you're talking about. Well, strike that...some of the things you said have some valid points but once again I think we should refer to the quote somone had that big mouths and small minds can be found in the same place.

1. There was some selling out in the movie and video game, but it's not like it hasn't been done in other video games, and so what? If you were to be looking at the actual movie, instead of trying to break it down and berate it all of the time then maybe you might have just went like so what - like the rest of us.

2. How can you say they didn't pay attention to detail? All of the story ties in to one another, from the latin saying above the Oracle's threshold into her kitchen, to the Neo-Smith battle. Morpheous always puts breaks into what he says for dramatic effect. And if you look, he's always been the same in the matrix as in the real world. "Some things in this world *space* Captain Niobe *space*, will never change. *space* Some things do change." To say he was some sort of prophet 24/7 that's his character! If you're a writer you should know to make your characters atleast in some way consistent. And he was...he was always talking dramatically, and philosophically, and over-abundantly...that was him! And as for the human thing, if you ever cared to watch the extras on the dvds, Fishburne himself talked about how Morpheous in the sequels was decreasing while Neo and Trinity increased. Take a look at his human side. Did you not see the despair in his eyes when the Neb blew up? Or how about his anxiety (sp?) when Niobe was hollering at him to keep up and he sputtered a quick "I'm trying!" How can you sit there and say there was no pretext? THere was! Look at when Neo was entering the Merovingian's restaurant. Who did they show in slow-motion....Ramachandra...yes yes Ramachandra. I rewinded the movie wondering who in the hell he was, and in Revolutions, you find out straight right out at the beginning who he was. Another pretext example would be once again the sign above the oracle's kitchen.

3. Why are you complaining about the spectacle? The matrix was one...bullet time changed the way movies were made, are made now. They had to re-construct something else once again that would surpass everything in its wake, something that would define the trilogy as extra-special. In Reloaded it was the CG Neo-Smith fight scene, and in Revolutions it was the Neo-Smith fight scene in the air that was just totally off the hook. Hey I got an idea, maybe you should look into *why* Seraph fought Neo, and maybe you can get some of the philosphy you so seem to lack from that.

4. Ahh....not really. Not really at all....from re-incarnation, to machines having and expereincing emotion, which thanks to Muse can be attributed to the author of I-Robot, to love, which you can go off in all different tangents from looking at Neo and Trinity, to all sorts of things. You say everything was face value, but that's because you have to delve into it. Maybe the Wachs had face value philosopy for people like you that wouldn't take the time to actually think about the values and beleifs that they presented in their movies. You try to say that the Causality, which he actually said was Cause and Effect but anyways, is old, but that doesn't matter. Please tell me how old do you think the idea of re-incarnation is? Or resurrection for that matter? If you're so hung up on these old ideas and threads of philosophy and you somehow still idolize the first movie then....what's up with you? Do you truly understand how many ifferent sects of mythology and religion were put into that one movie alone? If you happen to know anything about philosophy, which you're sounding like you don't, you would know that once an idea is put onto the table it's very rarely taken off...and even if it's off by the accepted standards, it can always be brought back to argue one's point across. THey're still using Decartes' ideas for christ sakes and he was from the 1700's.

This is all I have to say, sorry no disrespect to you or anyone else, but no one disrespects my movie and just gets away with it.

[Anonymous]

I find humor in this, Eclipse. It is not without a sense of irony that you condem me for calling people names who have different views than my own, and yet you also condem me because I don't believe the same things you do. I do find that big mouths and small minds go hand-in-hand. I do not believe you should have pointed fingers with that statement, however. You should have used it as the title to define what your post is.

Point 1: There wasn't a little bit of selling out in the Matrix sequels. There was more advertisements in RELOADED than there is in a James Bond film. This cheapens the integrity of the film. Integrity may not be easily identifiable to you, it may not even be important. It is important to me, however. And as I've already said, I don't care what other movies have done in the past. Hollywood Cinema is in a very, very sad state. Where spectacle is more important than good acting, good writing, good story, or anything else that gives a film substance. For someone who keeps telling me that I have a small mind, you sure as hell are more interested in style than substance.

Also, what the hell is it that you think I'm doing? Do you think that I want to hate the Sequels? You do not show very much logic in any of your arguments. It seems to be all heart, no brains, and half assed. I can respect passion, but blind faith only gets you handing out bibles in the parking lots of public schools.

Point 2: The stories tie together, very loosely. Most of the stuff that was said in the first movie never applied to the sequels. They chose style over substance. The greatest example would be what Morpheus says about the Agent's in the first movie. "They are guarding all the doors, they are holding all the keys, and eventually, someone will have to fight them." Ironically enough, there were many doors to be guarded, several keys to be held, and yet Agent's were no where to be found in any of this, unless you count Smith, which you shouldn't, since he is as much an exile as Persiphone.

As for Morpheus. His dialogue in the sequels were ridiculous at best. And in the first one, there was a whole level of duality between the real world and the Matrix. The Matrix is artificial, perfectly constructed, semetrical... It gives the impression that it is superior. Likewise, Morpheus gives off these same impressions. In the real world, Morpheus is much more human. He doesn't speak with the depth in his voice, he doesn't keep every sentence perfectly monotoned and spaced out with lots of breaths. In the sequels, he's no different inside the Matrix as he is outside of it. They detract from what made Morpheus' character great, and wonderfully complex. He is now very 2 dimensional, lacking any real depth. Giving him a girlfriend doesn't add depth or layers. And as for the few times when Morpheus allowed himself to step out of the boundaries he carefully (or not so carefully) constructed for himself, such as the examples you give, where he gives a one-liner about the Neb when it blows up, or with his frustration as a copilot.

And as for this "pretext" of yours. The two sequels were filmed at the same time, so the example with Ramachandra at the restaurant is irrelivant.

Point 3: I'm complaining about the spectacle, because it completely hijacked the sequels, taking up so much space that there was no room for a story. The Original was not based on bullet time. They used bullet time like four times in that whole movie. In the sequels, that camera was spinning around so much you could start a tornado. All of those bullshit fights in the sequel did nothing to further the story. EVERY fight in the original did something.

Trinity vs. Agent's and Police: It shows that there's something not right about this world.
Neo vs. Morpheus: This set up the ground rules, rules like gravity. Some can be bent, others, can be broken.
Morpheus vs. Smith: Shows the invincibility of the Agent's. It also proves Morpheus' dedication to his beliefs, and his faith in Neo. It also shows the wisdom of the Oracle.
Neo & Trinity vs. SWAT and Agents: This was a fight to further substanciate the Oracle's wisdom, as well as showing Neo beginning to develop faith of his own. He begins to believe in something, for the first time in his life, and he's willing to die for those beliefs. It is this which makes him ready to become the One. It also is pivitol, as this is the battle that will not only give hope to the people of Zion, but it serves to free Morpheus as well.
Neo vs. Smith: Neo developed his faith in the Oracle. Now he's beginning to develope faith in himself. He knows he's the one, and he goes head-to-head with an Agent, and defeats him.
Neo vs. Smith again: Neo is killed, reincarnated as the One, and now he's unstoppable.

Now let's examine the battles in the sequels:

Trinity vs. Guards: This is pointless. It is the first fight of the original movie reborn. There's absolutely no point to it, as it is a dream sequence, and her kung fu battle against the guards is irrelivant to the point of Neo's dream. This is pure spectacle. A way to get you revved up about the rest of the movie. They could have done this and had the fight be relevant to the story.
Neo vs. Agents: Pointless. So the Agent's get upgrades, big fucking deal. Neo kicks the shit out of them anyway, in a terribly scripted fight sequence that was absolutely boring. And to make it worse, Neo never fights another Agent again throughout the trilogy. It's spectacle, nothing more.
Neo vs. Seraph: "You don't truly know someone, until you fight them." This is a dumb sentement, which not only makes for the worst fight in the whole trilogy, but the statement isn't even TRUE. There's no truth to it at all, and yet it's Seraph's whole... 'thing.' Now, if at some point in time, Seraph starting fights with people actually turned out to be a relevant thing, like maybe Smith takes the form of a guy without revealing that he's Smith, or there's some other kind of infiltration Agent who fight's Seraph, and Seraph, through fighting them, learns that they're an agent, that would have been fine. But nothing like this ever happens. It's pointless.
Neo vs. Smith: Smith somehow finds Neo, gives him a lame speech about purpose, and then they get into a tedius, overdrawn fight that 90% of it is CG. Pure spectacle. It doesn't further the story at all, except to show that Smith can copy himself, which we already fucking know since he did it to Bane. It also shows that he can't do it to Neo, which we already fucking knew before it happened.
Neo vs. Merv's men: Pointless spectacle again. It's an excuse to distract Neo so that Morpheus & Co. can have a 15 minute long car chase scene which wouldn't have been possible had Neo been there. So we get more, poorly scripted fight scenes, of which the sound was terrible for. It was the same fucking sound effect no matter what weapon was being used.
Car Chase Scene: 15 minute long spectacle. Arguably had a point to it all. It did serve to further cheapen the intimidation factor of the Agent's. It doesn't matter that Morpheus got his ass kicked, eventually he prevailed against the Agent. This is 9/10ths bullshit. The Agent's are basically laughable by this time.

Club Hel: Pointless bullshit spectacle, the lobby scene of the original Matrix remade, and remade to be comical, apparently, since it was something totally uncool that cannot be taken seriously. Yeah, they were going there to get Neo back, but this wasn't a difficult task for them, and was all spectacle. It served only to have one last fight with Morpheus and Trinity, so that they weren't totally left out of the third movie.
Zion Battle: 15 minute long battle that goes on for fucking ever. Definitely the coolest fight of either sequels, which is an annoying fact because it takes place OUTSIDE THE MATRIX. But whatever, I won't say that there was no point to it, there was. It was just extremely long.
Neo vs. Smith: This was Dragon Ball Z on crack. It was poorly scripted coreography, and was incredibly boring. Certainly there was a point to it, but it defies logic. Smith controlled the whole Matrix. He could have killed Neo just by bum-rushing him with 10,000 guys. This didn't happen because of a lame ass excuse the Wachowski's had to make up last minute because they finally realized that Smith cloning was a pretty fucking stupid idea.

Point 4: Causality and Cause and Effect are the same thing. Merovingean uses both terms in the movie. All of the philosophy was spoon fed to you, which is probably the only reason you even know it's there. And I'm not saying that they shouldn't have put Causality into the movie because it's old. I'm saying that they shouldn't have put causality into it because it's WRONG. Causality says that nothing happens without reason. Chaos Theory disproves Causality, because nothing is certain. Chaos proves that you cannot categorize everything, and expect to know its outcome, because there are factors, and variables that you never could have suspected would happen. Causality makes the claim that there is Order in the universe. Chaos Theory proves this wrong, because there is no order, there is only Chaos.

Philosophy, by definition, is the search for truth. If the Wachowski's knew what the fuck they were talking about, they wouldn't have added something that fundamentally has no truth. There is no point in feeding you lies, which is more or less what they did.

You, who I am coming to see as a sheep, believe their lies, simply because of who told them to you.

I never said you couldn't like the movies. Lot's of people like bad movies. I like one or two bad movies myself. I do not condem you for your taste, but you are trying to tell me that my opinion is wrong, and you have badly written reasons that don't quite support you whatsoever, but merely show how strongly you feel for your favorite trilogy.

I largely support all of my claims with reasons, examples, and logic.

This goes back to what I said earlier. You fight with passion, while I fight with logic. Passion might win you over some friends to agree with your cause, as they can see it as more noble. But logic will always defeat passion. In fact, that's one of the oldest fighting tricks in the book. When a calm, intelligent, calculated person gets into a fight, he tries to piss the hell out of his opponent, because when the opponent is angry, he is sloppy, and he makes mistakes, and inevitably, he loses.

History has a funny way of repeating itself.

[Anonymous]

I have never condemed you Tyshalle! I only merely disagreed with you! lol dude you're seriously going to have to learn how to stop blowing things out of proportion, because you are. I welcome that you don't believe in the same things that I do, because I welcome agruement. Why? Because I like to debate and argue, because I win.

Point 1. I agreed that there was selling out in the film. But seeing as how I don't watch too many James Bond films I can't really compare the two. Of course integrity is important to me. If it wasn't why in the hell, or what in the hell would I be debating you over for? I'd just go ehh....whatever. No big deal to me. But since integrity is important to me, I find myself disagreeing with you because I think that these sequel do have integrity. To say Hollywood cinema is in a sad taste....I say....I don't know dude what the heck do you want me to say? It's HOLLYWOOD for crying out loud! It's entertainment. People, the majority mind you, not everybody, go to the movies to see 2 hours full of explosions, and kung fu fighting, and everything else entertaining, not to get lost in the plot. Not to say that any thought-provoking movies shouldn't come out in theathers, but it is possible that the Wachs were moved to have a more action filled movie then the first. Yes, admittedly I did go back to the sequels expecting great fight scenes, and style, because the first movie had that! It had style, and it had substance. And you expected the other two to have it, and it did.

As to what I think you're doing, I have not one darn clue lol. You say you don't want to hate the movies, and I never said that you wanted to hate them, or that you do hate them, I only said that I wasn't going to let you talk about the movies in that sort of way unchallenged. That's all I said. To say my arguments are unbased with *factual data,* Did I not give examples for why there was detail, did I not give an example of Morpheous taking a space, when you said there were none, did I not give an example of Ramachandra? Who even if the movies were filmed at the same time, were released at two different times, and still are infact two seperate movies, so because the clue extends between two seperate movies, it is still a pretext clue.

Point 2. Can you please give an example of what you're talking about when you say that "Most of the stuff that was said in the first movie never applied to the sequels." If you can I'm sure I can bring something up. I can't think of one thing that might have been said that wasn't releveant, and still isn't relevant.

Morpheous is Morpheous dude! lol He's always the same. Watch The first movie. Go to the scene when Morphoues is telling Neo of the prophecy, when Neo is in bed, after his first try in the construct. Does he not monotone every word out? Does he not speak abundatly, and over-flowerish I guess is the word. Doesn't he? But he's still human! Everybody is like that!. Even from Morpheous's original crew, to Ghost and his beliefs, once again inside and outside of the matrix, to how Niobe is a stalwart warrior and soldier. She doesn't take crap from anyone, once again, say it with me now, inside or outside of the matrix. If you need more proof, look at when Morphous talks to Locke...it's his character....to be that way...it's just him.

And as for this pretext of mines, you were the one who brought up pretext. I just gave you proof that there was infact pretext. I already wrote about Ramachandra, so I won't bore you with it again.

Point 3. Haven't we already discussed spectacle? And no, I agree the movie was not based around bullet time. BUT there are the memorable fights in the matrix. When you think matrix what is the first thing that comes to your mind? It's either one of two things. Bullet time, and/or the shooting scene inside of the government building. Which, oh no dare we say it......is a spectacle? And even if it's not that, and you think of the incredible storyline, is that not a spectacle in and of itself? What is a spectacle if not to catch your attention and have it for as long as possible? Is that too not a spectacle? So we can argue that all movies are spectacles.....and if you go to see a movie, you're only contributing to the "evil" that is Hollywood. To say that the fights did nothing to further the story is...hmm I'm gonna go with not really, but it's easy to be taken that way. Neo *did* need to fight Seraph in order to meet the oracle, who told him to go see the keymaker, so that did further the story. With Neo and Smith, the story was furthened before the fight with the Purpose speech, and then by the fight itself because it exposed Smith as going to be a key element in the future and story. I won't argue with you on the original matrix storyline because yes, it's my favorite movie.

But like you said, let's examine the battles in the sequels:

Trinity vs. Guards: It's not as pointless as you think it is man. In a way it is the first fight of the matrix reborn. But think of it man...all three movies, all of them start off with an action scene. It grips you into the movie...it's like putting the narrative hook of a book in the first sentence. This fight can't show that there isn't something right about the world because we already know, so it does something different. It scares the hell out of Neo. Because he's dreaming about the love of his life dying. And we later find out it's like a precognative dream. It's showing Neo's powers expanding into new territories that we never would have expected.
Neo vs. Agents: It shows that the matrix is constantly upgrading, and that there might be a little competion for Neo. The mention of upgradies is foreshadowing. It makes the viewer wonder, "Upgrades? Wow I wonder what else is upgraded, what else is new?" it makes them expect something, which makes the movie more enjoyable. lol Dude talk about *me* having no logical backup for my claims? You say that it was "absolutely boring" but then you say what's worse is that Neo doesn't fight another agent in the whole trilogy. Why would you want him to?! You say it was bad as hell the first time, why would you want another helping?
Neo vs Seraph: I've already explained this one up above. Oh, but just to add....we don't know everything! There are some things that you truly won't know about people until you fight them. You won't know how commited they are to winning whatever it is that you're fighting for, and that can tell you alot about a person right there. Their values, their beliefs, are they hardworking, do thy have perseverance, are they easily deterred, easily frightened, brave, bold, do they have courage, what's their true motives, even down to how strong and fast they are. You can learn alot from just getting into an arguement, or debate, or fight with people. Besides like I stated before, we don't know! This game that is comeing out in Nov is going to open up our eyes and shed light on alot of things that we did not know before.
Neo vs. Smith: Already talked abou this above, but just to add...that was a damn insightful speech on purpose. And it also adds light to how far machines and programs are able to think. Look at the original matrix. Didn't Smith share a "revelation" with Morpheous? He thinks alot. And as for the CG...I do agree with the fact that it was spectacle...but it was nicely done. It does help further the story though. It lets viewers know that he's going to be a pivotal force in the future to come and that he can possibly obstuct Neo from his purpose.
Neo vs. Merv's Men: Spectacle yes, pointless no. It was entertaining to watch the 15 long car ride, and Neo beat the crap out of those guys. You know that IS why we watch these hings...for entertainment. But as for the sound, I didn't notice, but kudos to you for doing so.
Car Chase Scene: The movie was no longer too much about the agents at this point. It was about The keymaker and getting to the source. To say that it was a cheap kill...well dude look at the original matrix. Did not Trinity do the same thing? Right in his head, which we could say he *should* have been able to dodge it, but he didn't? Well we could say the same thing about this scene.

Club Hell: I personally didn't mind that it was a copy of the original matrix. It was sort of a salute to it. You know this is the last film, and they sort of redo it. And it's ironic too, because in the first one they were going to save someone, and in this one too they were going to save someone. And as I said before this scene was at the very beginning of the movie, so like always, the Wachs started off strong with something to jump off the crowd and get their attention immediately. As for the last fight with Morpheous and Trinity, I already told you that this late in the game Morpheous was decreasing...Trinity was still in it with Neo, but Morphoeus was going down a bit.
Zion Battle: Why are you so angry that this part was outside of the matrix? Does it really matter?
Neo vs Smith: Lol man I thought it was just me and Zink who thought it looked like DBZ. But hey it wasn't on crack it was on speed....to me that part was very entertaining. Everything in the matrix defies logic. Even if Smith did what you said, and killed Neo, he he would have wanted to control him so he would have copied into him. And Neo still would have won. What's the difference? Oh....oh unless you wanted more of a spectacle?

Point 4. I'm not going to argue that difference or even the data of Cause and Effect, because I don't know the logistics of it. Only thing I do have to say that if you could *possibly* factor in all of the variables then more then likely you'd come up with the outcome. But to say that I only know the philosophy because it was spoon fed to me....whatever. Think what you want bro.

If you think that you can write a better Matrix trilogy then the people actually wrote the Matrix trilogy....go on right ahead.

I really don't care what you're coming to see me as. I know what I believe, and I believe what I know. If I believed everything that someone told me, I'd be agreeing with you.

Likewise did I never say you cold not like the movies. I only said that I wouldn't let you talk badly about them unchallenged. My reasons are not unsupported, and if you see them that way then dude...you have issues. Not to be disrspectful, but what I hear fromm you is alot of blah blah, fucktard this, monkeyhumper that, blah, blah, idiot this, immature that, blah, blah, fucktard, fucktard, fucktard. So, in the general interest of I think everybody I'm going to stop this, and not reply ever again. If you want to reply go ahead. But still dude you're in the clan so that means you're cool with me. Peace

[Anonymous]

Ya, eclipse, You really should think about editing that post. It was posted after T Bone posted about hate and spam, and well, I wouldnt want to see anyone get kicked out because of them having petty arguments with another, whether or not I think your right or wrong.

To the post made below by tyshalle: You seem to have missed my whole point. No doubt Eclipse, in a way, realized that the hate part about the "Spamming and Hate" thread was directed at this thread, and realized that the argument shouldnt go on. He still shouldnt of posted, considering he pointed out in  that thread that it was  good idea for T Bone to point out the problems, then two hours later post that response, the argument really shouldnt continue.

[Anonymous]

I'm a grown up, and I can handle debates. I'll make my reply later tonight when I have some free time on my hands, but Eclipse, I find that usually people who announce that they're not going to reply to any further points made, do so because they don't have any more ammo left in their pistol, if you take my meaning.

Especially when you have made it a point to challenge me on these matters, it just looks tacky for you to back down. Perhaps some of the jabs you (or I by your perspective) are making are a little immature, but I don't think that you are being a child about any of this. I don't feel like any feelings are being hurt, and since this debate hasn't been torn down into nothing but petty insults back and forth, I see little reason not to continue it.

Which isn't to say that you have to. I just don't see the harm in it.